Troll 'contributions' to candobetter

Wed, 2022-04-06 23:54 by admin

This page has been created as a place from which posts which, at best, add nothing to the debate are to be posted. See also update of 26 June 2022, below.

Where a post contains repetition of past claims which have been challenged in subsequent posts, without any reference to those posts and/or personal abuse,  that post will be moved to this page and linked to from wherever it was originally posted. This has been made necessary by a number of recent posts from "Steve M". We will also link back from here to wherever the original post has been made. This will allow those site visitors, who may be curious, to see what has been posted, whilst sparing other visitors from that material.

 

Conclusion of

Update, 8 May 2022: Upon further reflection, I have copied this concluding paragraph, and my response, back to the page on which it was originally posted. That page is linked in the heading above. This post was also linked to from where it was originally removed. Other examples of trolling by Robert Chernenko, which remain deleted from where they were originally posted, can be found below. Should anyone visiting those pages be interested to know what Robert Chernenko originally posted on those pages, he/she can follow the links to this page. However, I think most site visitors will appreciate not having to be subjected to such posts on those pages.- James

Steve M (3/5/22): The most rogue, corrupt nations today are China, Russia, Iran, Eritrea, Syria and North Korea. At the moment, the worst culprit is the insane fascist criminal and war mongering mass murderer, Vlad Putin. Hopefully Putin will be shot dead then strung up from a metal girder, just like Benito Mussolini.  Sláva Ukrayíni!

My comment: If we were to accept the claim that Russia's war against Ukraine, which supposedly started only as recently as 24 February, was unprovoked, that war is the only war Russia has started since 1968. In the same time, the US has waged a large number of bloody and illegal wars against Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya and Syria and meddled covertly in numerous other countries. So I feel somewhat mystified that Robert Chernenko is so enraged at Russia's military action against the regime of US puppet President Zelensky in Kiev whilst being apparently indifferent to the numerous far greater crimes against humanity committed by the United States and its allies.

It would be interesting to see how most Russian would respond to "Hopefully Putin will be shot dead then strung up from a metal girder, just like Benito Mussolini." Unlike Mussolini, who was hated by most Italians when he was killed by Italian partisans on 28 April 1945, President Vladimir Putin enjoys overwhelming support in Russia (as well as amongst informed Ukrainians). Recent polls have shown Zelensky's popularity may be approaching that of il Duce amongst Italians in April 1945.

Steve M, 3/4/22: Yet more outrageous propaganda that panders to Russia's war mongering fascist dictator. Please get help

Steve M, 6/4/22: We can always rely own James to parrot the Putin regime's lies. Eye witness statements and satellite images and video footage all verify the Rape of Bucha.

Steve M, 6/4/22: Why do you believe Russian state propaganda over eye witness testimony?

Steve M, 2/4/22: That was an on-script Russian troll delivering one of the most wooden performances I have ever seen. Does anyone on this site have even half a brain?

Steve M, 4/4/22: I have presented an argument. Meanwhile you recycle the lies generated by the bloodthirsty Chinese and Russian propaganda organs. Utterly shameful.

Editor's comment: The that Steve M presented is all of two sentences, consisting of 27 words. Here it is, again:

That was an on-script Russian troll delivering one of the most wooden performances I have ever seen. Does anyone on this site have even half a brain?

I think its time that Steve M applied his talents elsewhere.

: Remaining posts from the 'discussion' between Robert Chernenko and James Sinnamon

I am moving the posts below here, because I have posted there my comment, originally beneath -5898856480">World War II Leaders, the hidden side of the Big Three relations (22/6/22), beneath (30/4/22). Unfortunately, if I would leave that supposed discussion there, few visitors are likely to find their way to my comment.

Robert Chernenko (not verified)

Sun, 2022-05-01 18:19

 

Hi James, much of what you write I would agree with. However, I do not agree with what you write about Vietnam.  My wife is Vietnamese and I have travelled to that country extensively since it opened up to western visitors, back in the late 1980s. My assessment in that the Communists had overwhelming support in the north but only ever the support of a small minority in the south. I've spoken to hundreds of South Vietnamese and find very few supported the Hanoi regime or Viet Cong. But the one's who supported the VC were fanatics. One fanatic with a gun is more than a match for ten citizens with a strong preference for peace but a dislike of communism.  Of course the great irony of the Vietnam War is that just 10 years after the war ended, the Vietnamese Communist government (and its people) decided that the Chinese Communists are much more scary than the Americans, so détente happened.  Chinese expansionism and militarisation of the South China Sea means Vietnam now hopes it will gain protection by allying with the United States. This includes risking China's wrath by hosting US naval ships, as reported here: (5/3/2018) | NPR by Michael Sullivan    

Tue, 2022-05-03 14:23

 

Robert, much of the worth of the 1975 victory of the National Liberation Front over the US puppet government in Saigon had been lost as a result of the appalling destruction inflicted upon all of Vietnam by the Japanese, the French, then after 1956 by the U.S. and its allies., including Australia and New Zealand.

(I am unclear about the dates, but I should be able to obtain them with a little extra research) After many decades of trying to rebuild their country, the rulers of Vietnam accepted conditions imposed upon them by the IMF in order to obtain a loan. Thus began the process of transforming Vietnam back into the neo-colony that it has become today. The rulers of Vietnam have also turned their backs on their forefathers who sacrificed so much to fight against the United States and formed an alliance with that very same country..

Regarding the North Vietnam vs South Vietnam, what you write shows that the artificial division imposed on Vietnam in 1956 has become somewhat real since the 1980's. However, I know I read from an Australian political leader of the 1950's and 1960's  (possibly Foreign Minister Richard Casey) that the Vietminh enjoyed as much support in the south as they did in the north (I can't find the source. Just possibly I will find a copy Robert Casey's autobiography in the State Library.) A provision of the 1956 Geneva peace agreement, which Ho Chi Minh stupidly complied with, was that Vietminh supporters in the South were required to move northwards into the newly created 'North' Vietnam. I presume that there was an equivalent migration  by pro-colonialist Vietnamese into 'South' Vietnam, thus beginning to make the division of Vietnam somewhat less artificial.

When the war subsequently resumed, from the late 1950's I think, it was possible for the US, Australian governments and the corporate news-media, to depict the return to 'South' Vietnam of NLF fighters, who had previously lived there, as an 'invasion' of 'South' Vietnam by 'North' Vietnam.

Robert Chernenko (not verified)

Tue, 2022-05-03 16:53

 

When I first visited Saigon (HCMC) in the 1980's, rivers of shit flowed down the gutters, skinny rickshaw men dressed in filthy rages were the backbone of the economy, rats outnumbered the people 100 to 1 in the shabby marketplaces and poverty and despair were everywhere. Hanoi was even worse and I took the advice of my partner's family not to visit certain areas where hunger and malnutrition were said to be rife. The "forefathers" you speak of were vastly incompetent , despotic and corrupt buffoons whose maladministration was such that millions of Vietnamese fled the country in boats even though they knew death at sea was highly likely. After the "sell out", as you call it, living standards began to rise albeit unevenly. The Vietnamese government is today just as despotic and corrupt as ever, but at least most of the citizens have a chance of a decent life. Maybe you should read and travel more widely as your view of reality is cartoonish and obscenely inaccurate.  History is shades of grey, not black and white.

Tue, 2022-05-03 19:29

 

The American aerial bombardment of Vietnam only ended in 1975 roughly only 10 years prior to "the 1980's". During that war , whilst in all of the Second World War, right across most of the globe, only 2 million tons were dropped.

Had it occurred to you, that, just possibly, this and all that Agent Orange defoliant may have been at least as much the cause of what you describe as the supposed maladministration by the Vietnamese government?

Or, do you believe that, had the war continued and another 7 million tons of bombs were dropped on Vietnam, the prosperity you describe, as it continues to dig up unexploded US ordinance, would have come sooner?

Perhaps you also think that JFK was wrong to try to end the Vietnam War before he was murdered on 22 November 1963.

I find it astonishing that the government of a country so monstrously devastated by the United States could bring itself to form a military alliance with that same country, particularly as that country continues to inflict on other countries - Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Serbia, Yemen, Somalia, Lebanon, Palestine, Ukraine, Venezuela, Bolivia, ... much of what it inflicted on Vietnam.

Robert, it's interesting that you concede that the Vietnamese government is corrupt. How could any government, let alone the government of Vietnam, that is prepared to form a military alliance with world's foremost rogue nation, not be corrupt?

How any Vietnamese government minister can look himself in the mirror each morning is a mystery to me.

Robert Chernenko (not verified)

Tue, 2022-05-03 20:00

 

I haven't conceded anything, I've told the truth complete with shades of grey. Hopefully you'll one day mature and learn to do likewise.

I consider the above to be an ad hominem attack. - James

My wife is from Dalat, in the south central highlands, which was barely effected by the war. Throughout the war, people lived well and food was plentiful, including my wife's enormous family (12 children). After the war, the new government enforced economic policies that destroyed production and distribution, so for years my wife lived on little more than a meagre ration of fish sauce and sun dried sweet potato. Others were constantly hungry, not eating for days at a time. I have been told the same story by South Vietnamese over and over again for 40 years. I don't care what you've read, I trust the oral histories.

Also noteworthy is that Saigon, Vietnam's economic powerhouse, was relatively unscathed by the war and Hanoi, although extensively bombed, was able to function effectively throughout the war.

The immense poverty in Vietnam got better within years of the country opening to to the West, including the US, and introducing pro-market economic reforms. I Know this to be true because I saw it with my own eyes. It is also well documented in books etc ...

Whilst the above seems informative and coherent, it makes no attempt to respond to what I previously wrote, so I still consider it to be trolling. Whilst I have chosen to leave the above portion of the original post here, I have decided it is necessary for me to move the final paragraph to the "Troll Posts" (and have added my response). - James

Further comment 4 May 2022: Upon further reflection, I have decided to copy back here, from the , Robert's odious concluding paragraph and my response. I note that Robert has, so far, not attempted to respond in turn to that response. - James

Conclusion of

Steve M (3/5/22): The most rogue, corrupt nations today are China, Russia, Iran, Eritrea, Syria and North Korea. At the moment, the worst culprit is the insane fascist criminal and war mongering mass murderer, Vlad Putin. Hopefully Putin will be shot dead then strung up from a metal girder, just like Benito Mussolini.  Sláva Ukrayíni!

My comment: If we were to accept the claim that Russia's war against Ukraine, which supposedly started only as recently as 24 February, was unprovoked, that war is the only war Russia has started since 1968. In the same time, the US has waged a large number of bloody and illegal wars against Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya and Syria and meddled covertly in numerous other countries. So I feel somewhat mystified that Robert is so enraged at Russia's military action against the regime of US puppet President Zelensky in Kiev whilst being apparently indifferent to the numerous far greater crimes against humanity committed by the United States and its allies.

It would be interesting to see how most Russian would respond to "Hopefully Putin will be shot dead then strung up from a metal girder, just like Benito Mussolini." Unlike Mussolini, who was hated by most Italians when he was killed by Italian partisans on 28 April 1945, President Vladimir Putin enjoys overwhelming support in Russia (as well as amongst informed Ukrainians). Recent polls have shown Zelensky's popularity may be approaching that of il Duce amongst Italians in April 1945.

I will respond at some point in the near future to Robert's claim that Vietnam has prospered after opening up to, and even forming a military alliance with, the same United States that dropped 7 billion tons of bombs on it between 1964 and 1975 and which, according to Wikipedia, caused between 1,326,494 and 3,447,494 deaths.

Thu, 2022-05-05 18:13

 

Robert wrote:

I haven't conceded anything,

In fact, you conceded that the Vietnamese regime, that has formed a military alliance against humanity with the same government that dropped 7 million tons of bombs on its territory and killed millions of its people, is corrupt.

Of course 'corrupt' is an understatement.

I don't know of any other example in history, where a people who have fought so hard to rid themselves of an occupying power and at such a terrible cost, has turned around and formed a military alliance with that same country. This is what the rulers of Vietnam have done. They are now allies of the United States in its war against humanity.

The apparent prosperity you described in Vietnam began as half a million Iraqi children alone were dying as a consequence of US sanctions imposed after the 1991 Gulf War. That war resulted from Saddam Hussein being led to believe by US ambassador April Glaspie, that Iraq could invade Kuwait to stop Kuwait from slant-drilling into Iraqi oil fields. The late infamous Madeline Albright notoriously said that she believed that "it was worth it" for the lives of 500,0000 children's lives to be lost as a consequence of the US's subsequent illegal sanctions of food and medicine.

Clearly, the US decision to normalise relations with Vietnam was a cynical attempt to bribe the government of Vietnam into submitting its people once again to US hegemony, whilst other peoples, in particular, the people of Iraq, were to receive, from the US, treatment in many ways similar to what it had already inflicted upon the people of Vietnam.

Evidently, the corrupt Vietnamese government accepted this bribe. For now, this bribe appears to have paid off for the United States.

Robert Chernenko (not verified)

Fri, 2022-05-06 14:27

 

Hi James, since you censor my comments and use aggressive language, further discourse with you would be unfructuous. Instead I'll spend more time on academic sites, like the superlative "The Conversation", where my concern about Russian propaganda is suitably fortified by dozens of learned academics in articles such as this: 

Comment: In general, candobetter does not allow forum posts to include actual links or the URLs from which those links can be constructed (whilst text which implicitly shows what the actual URL is, is allowed). This is to avoid any likelihood of visitors clicking on links to pages containing malware. However, I have found the page pointed to by the implicit URL originally included in the above post does not to point to such a page. So I have converted the implicit URL into an actual link in order to allow other candobetter visitors to more easily visit that page on The Conversation and be able to form their own judgements on the content of that article. -- Ed

Fri, 2022-05-06 22:11

 

Robert, briefly for now:

Firstly I reject your accusation that I have censored your posts to candobetter.

Secondly, from my initial brief overview of the article "" I am not impressed. I have not found in that article one actual quote from any of the articles on , or any of rt.com's news bulletins or forum programs that can be shown to be untrue or misleading. I think you will find that this is because the author Oleksandr Pankieiev, "Editor-in-Chief of the Forum for Ukrainian Studies, Contemporary Ukraine Studies Program, Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies, University of Alberta" was unable to find any.

I note the riveting discussion beneath Oleksandr Pankieiev's article. In the 5 weeks since that article was published on 31 March, all of two comments have been posted! (In fact, discussion was closed after only 72 hours. See below.)

I will deal with Oleksandr Pankieiev's article and Robert's above post more comprehensively tomorrow.

Update, 8 May 2022:

Upon yet more reflection, I have decided that I can rest my case against (31/3/22) by 'learned academic' Oleksandr Pankieiev. (I was about to post a comment to that article on The Converation including a link back to here, but found that comments were closed after only 72 hours!)

As with all other smearing of Russian newsmedia as 'disinformation' that I have come across in recent years, not one actual quote of such 'disinformation' is provided, not even a quote taken out of context. The only remotely plausible explanation of this omission, is that no such disinformation exists.

Regarding Robert's accusation that I have censored his posts, copies of everything he has ever posted to candobetter are still on candobetter. However, for reasons I have explained, posts I consider to be disingenuous and abusive have been copied to the , thence deleted from where they were originally posted. Links to that page, together with explanations, have been provided so that other site visitors can form their own conclusions about my handling of these posts.

Arnold (not verified)

Sat, 2022-05-07 08:10

 

As James noted not one example of Russian 'disinformation' was quoted in that article. How hard would it be to quote from an article on RT which, as an example, claimed that all Ukrainians had two heads if that article existed?

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