Comments

quark

Tue, 2010-04-06 21:49

I also found the man mauling wombat story hard to believe. I cannot imagine a non predatory animal such as a wombat gratuitously attacking a human. It doesn't make sense and as my favourite TV judge says "if it doesn't make sense, it isn't true."

Tigerquoll

Tue, 2010-04-06 17:00

In The Age newspaper today (6th April 2010) is the story 'Man-mauling wombat felled by axe' by journalists Reid Sexton and Megan Levy.

"...Bruce Kringle, 60, lay on top of the animal in a desperate bid to stop the attack in Flowerdale just before 7am. A neighbour heard his cries for help and, after telling Mr Kringle to move off the animal, killed it with a blow from the back of an axe.

Geoff McClure, compliance team leader for the Department of Sustainability and Environment, said a wombat attack was extremely unusual."

Frankly, I find this hard to believe and indeed suspicious. 'Rogue wombat'. Wombats are native to this part of Victoria. If anything, it is the humans with axes that are the roagues. Did Kringle have a Alexander Pearcian moment after getting on the turps perhaps? Alexander Pearce was that notorious 19th Century convict in Van Diemans Land who butchered his fellow escapees with an axe then ate them, as the recent disturbingfilm portrays.

The incident should be investigated by both a RSPCA vet and the police taking account of witnesses, and including a blood alchohol test on both the men, and a background check on Kringle and the 'neighbour' who killed it with an axe for any history of animal abuse.

Killing a wombat with an axe? How cruel, vicious and unnecessary!

Tiger Quoll
Snowy River 3885
Australia

Tigerquoll

Tue, 2010-04-06 13:05

Thank you Vivienne,

This is an important ecological issue that is not going to go away with human populations permeating further into the last remnant wildlife islands we have.

This issue would seem to come under the generic topics of:

* Human-Wildlife Conflicts
* Wildlife Translocation

On these topics I recommend the text 'Resolving Human-Wildlife Conflicts: The Science of Wildlife Damage Management' by Michael Conover, CRC Press 2001.

These topics deserve to be explored and publised with a view of legislating best ecological practice.

I also highlight the comparison of 20th Century treatment of Australia's wildlife (kangaroos, wild fouls in Victoria's duck season) to the British colonial treatment of Aborigines in the 19th Century.
I recommend adults only reading of BLACK WAR - THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TASMANIAN ABORIGINES By RUNOKO RASHIDI, in particular Part 2.
It is disturbing reading and I warn it may offend.

Tiger Quoll
Snowy River 3885
Australia

John Marlowe

Tue, 2010-04-06 10:06

The Australian Multicultural Foundation website lists its aims and objectives as:

Aims and Objectives

1. To cultivate in all Australians a strong commitment to Australia as one people drawn from many cultures and by so doing to advance its social and economic well-being
2. The promotion of an awareness among the people of Australia of the diversity of cultures within Australia
3. The contribution of people from all cultures to the development of Australia
4. The spread of respect and understanding between all cultural groups through any appropriate means.

These seem wholesome noble aims.

Alumni Page

But yes, it seems a tad contrary that the website's Alumni page shows mainly photos of muslim women with head scarves.

Areas of interest

This section states "The Foundation has adopted an active role to develop intercultural initiatives" including "Promotion of awareness of our diverse cultures", "increasing foreign language skills", "Making use of cultural links between overseas communities and institutions and Australian residents".

So how is this 'cultivating in all Australians a strong commitment to Australia as one people'?

AMF Partners

AMF partners include:

    Community Languages Australia

"(Australian Federation of Ethnic Schools Associations) is an umbrella body designed to unite the ethnic schools of Australia, and the state-based bodies which serve as their administrators, consolidating them beneath a single, organizational banner, and in the process carrying out a number of crucial roles in the creation, maintenance, and profile of Australia’s over 1,000 community language schools, who provides language maintenance in 69 languages to in excess of 100,000 school age children."

    Scanlon Foundation

www.scanlonfoundation.org.au
The Scanlon Foundation’s mission is: “to support the creation of a larger cohesive Australian society”. Cultural Diversity and Social Cohesion has been the primary focus of its grant giving since its establishment in 2001.

    Kape Communication

www.kape.com.au
Kape Communications headed by Fotis Kapetopoulos specializes in cultural brokerage, multicultural marketing and arts industry development. Kape conducts audience research, communication campaigns, training and business development as well as undertake productions. Kape excel in arts marketing, cultural policy, arts management training, audience development, program curation and research.

    Federation of Ethnic Communities Councils of Australia

www.fecca.org.au
"FECCA is the peak, national body representing Australians from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds. FECCA's role is to advocate, lobby and promote issues on behalf of its constituency to government, business and the broader community.

Aims of these Partners incongruent with stated core aim of AMF

Singling out these specific partners from others listed on the AMF website, it would appear that the aims of these organisations are inconsistent with AMF's prime aim "to cultivate in all Australians a strong commitment to Australia as one people."

Rather the aims read more like fostering the reinforcement of foreign cultures and languages, building a larger Australian society from increased immigration, developing multi-cultural opportunities, political advocacy and lobbying of foreign cultures in Australia. AMF is building lots of little countries in Australia.

Where does AMF foster Australian values, such as gender equity?
Where does AMF reject sharia law in favour of Australia's secular laws?

Sharia Law Risk

Britain has been allowed to have mass immigration change its local culture to the extent Britain now recognises Sharia Law.

Read: http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3522

Is it only a matter of time before the cultural diversity in Australia pushes Sharia Law here?
read: Sharia law would harm Aussie Muslim women

Want to find out what sharia law prescribes?
http://www.islamic-sharia.org/

Not just 'anti-feminist', try anathema to Australian culture!

Vivienne (not verified)

Mon, 2010-04-05 22:29

At our present rate of growth, we will be over 50 million by 2050, and to keep our numbers “down” to that level, there must be some control over population increases. Without a population policy, Kevin Rudd has been allowed to inflict his own personal agenda of a “big Australia” onto the nation. According to Aaron Gadiel, “the growth of a human society should never be equated with the problems caused by feral cats, cane toads and gamba grass.” No matter the economic, social and intrinsic value of the human species, over-population will make us into a destructive pest species. We are all part of nature and must fit into our finite ecological systems. When demand outstretches supply, then we end up being a destructive force on the planet. Our ageing population is the result of the post war baby boom and our massive immigration program in the following decades. Continuing to add more people, no matter how skilled, will not keep our population young. Once our environment goes into meltdown, all the skills and economics won’t compensate for the downturn in living standards, the extinction of wildlife, or the loss of viable ecological systems that provide our livelihoods.

Doug P. (not verified)

Mon, 2010-04-05 17:11

The Candobetter message about the growth lobby is getting to the mainstream media! Congratulations Sheila N. ""Lobby for developers wary of curb on population" URBAN developers are warning the federal government against arbitrary caps on population after Tony Burke was named the country's first population minister. Urban Taskforce Australia, which represents 85 companies, urged the government to resist pressure from "anti-growth political forces" when it draws up Australia's first population plan, reviewing immigration levels against the strains on infrastructure and the environment. "Any effort by the Australian government to try to lock in immigration or population numbers more than a few years in advance is unlikely to be successful," said the taskforce's chief executive, Aaron Gadiel. "I hope the government doesn't succumb to pressure and try to limit population growth.""

Anonymous (not verified)

Mon, 2010-04-05 10:10

What is this "Alumni" thing on the Australian Multicultural Foundation? Have a look. http://amf.net.au/about/alumni/ They all seem to come from the same ethnic background and most of them are women in burkas. I'm all for everyone being able to express themselves, but is this Foundation actually PROMOTING fundamentalist muslim dress code for women? Some feminists need to get in there at the AMC! Quick!

Anonymous (not verified)

Mon, 2010-04-05 09:06

Senator Penny Wong should have been given the position of minister of "big population". With the failure of Copenhagen, the ETS and CPRS, she must have little to do. Our Government's "business as usual" to growth makes it clear that they are climate change sceptics. Kevin Rudd's commitment to the "greatest moral challenge of our time" has become another broken promise. However, appointing Penny Wong as minister of population would inconveniently link population growth and growth in CO2 levels, and this would not be in their interests!

Agent Provocateur

Mon, 2010-04-05 06:45

Sheila Newman starts with... A few years ago I heard about the Australian Multicultural Foundation in the context of donations by the Scanlon Foundation (formerly the Brencorp Foundation) to the Australian Academy of Technical Sciences and Engineering (ATSE) for the production of the "Scanlon Report on "The technological implications of Australia at 30 million in 2030". *** I have nothing further to add, but as Sheila & I were discussing these issues recently, I thought that I would bring this issue to the fore on the recent comments section in the hope that others' will see & read the alarming implications between the way in which this seemingly benevolent & inoccuously named Foundation was started -its membership and consequent development and of its prevailing, extant agenda!

James Sinnamon

Sun, 2010-04-04 22:54

I saw that too. I would not be too judgemental. You would be surprised how all kinds of previously apathetic people can suddenly see the light and become ardent political activists. The way politics is reported in the mainstream media, it is no surprise that many fail to take any interest in politics. And the experience of most activists of the past the past three decades is of having vast amounts of mental, emotional and physical energy and time expended for no tangible result. Think of the hundreds of thousands who protested to stop the Iraq war in 2003 who were ignored. The reasonable arguments they put against the war were buried under an avalanche of media lies and they ended up becoming a powerless minority, even if a large minority. Not only was the Iraq war not stopped, but the Howard Government was rewarded for its deceit and its defiance of those huge protests by being re-elected in October 2004 with an increase majority and an outright Senate majority. The same experience has been repeated over and over again in all sorts of community struggles. Even when majority public opinion remains with the grass roots activists as it more often does, with privatisation being teh obvious example, they are routinely ignored. In these circumstances, the response of many to become apparently apathetic and uninterested in politics should not come as a great surprise. When people start to see grass roots political campaigns succeed for a change, then I think we can expect many to be shaken out of their current apathy.

Malcolm Spittle (not verified)

Sun, 2010-04-04 21:04

Once more this seems to be yet another ridiculous summit where the Government has no intention of listening to views other than their own. This is an attempt to justify their holy grail of endless growth which must have been permanently ingrained in the same manner as early childhood brainwashing with religion. "Ever increasing population is good," is the mantra, despite masses of evidence that it is bad . The bipartisan political refusal to face up to the country's carrying capacity is unreasonable. It is imperative that our leaders realize that Liebig's Law does indeed apply, in that the scarcity of only ONE essential resource is fatal for survival, whereas we have many resources such as water, oil, and food which are finite and in danger. As well as early childhood brainwashing we must not discount the massive influence of commercial sponsorship of both sides of parliament and the heavy dependence on this funding. Anger at this corrupt practice urged me to write :- Our land has lived through thousands of years an ancient place with washed out soils We needed no succour from other sources our numbers were few and people were happy WE were happy but our leaders were NOT whatever they did was directed by sponsors who wanted more people to give them more money so leaders told people they needed many more but people were weak and said "That's OK we'll drink less water and share our deserts while the sponsors get richer we'll make do with less." Malcolm

Brian S (not verified)

Sun, 2010-04-04 20:51

'Insiders' on 28th March included a short piece, I think from another channel, where a dozen prominent footballers were asked to name five Australian prime ministers. Not one succeeded. One said 'Edmund Barton' and then stopped dead. Several remembered Howard and others Hawke. One, at last, rattled off four correct names and then followed it confidently with 'George Bush !' Taking this as a fair sample of their generation, healthy alert young men from the people, although not of the academic minority, I wonder how wisely they will cast their obligatory vote at election time, and at the futility of argument and letters to the editor, when a huge proportion of the electors have not the faintest idea of what the arguments are about, and have not the slightest intention of finding out. I understand that if only 15% of a population is engaged and active history may be changed. All the same another question follows from this observation....with global warming, peak oil and overpopulation threatening mankind and demanding bold and sensible decisions...can we expect anything but tripe from these idiots, and as they appear to be in the majority, are we worth the trouble ?

Tigerquoll

Sun, 2010-04-04 17:38

Thanks you all for your comments. After the cat incident in Cairns, it seems logical that air rifles and bb-guns are those weapons that adolescents get access to before firearms. Access and acceptance to such weapons tends to one more familiar with those on the land or a non-urban lifestyle. It may be worth investigating this in an article. Meanwhile, the 'bevan' mindset and animal cruelty that persists in some communities is an eye opener. Check the correspondence in the following sites: http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/forums/Air-Rifle-t215353.html http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119277 http://www.ozziehunting.com/> http://www.ssaasa.org.au/ http://www.ssaa.org.au/juniors.html http://www.juniorshooters.com.au/main/Home.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BB_gun Tiger Quoll Snowy River 3885 Australia

Sheila Newman

Sun, 2010-04-04 13:08

Our social leaders, lawyers, and politicians are addicted to money. For this reason, the rights of any human or non-human animal, which is not a direct source of financial income, to a peaceful existence, are discounted and often obliterated. We see this in the unsubtle encouragement of anger and violence towards the elderly and unemployed in our society. They are deemed worthless. Moreover the so-called problem of the Aging babyboomers is used as an excuse to import vast numbers of immigrants as cash-cows for the same money-obsessed 'leaders' lionised by the press. See for instance http://candobetter.org/taxonomy/term/393 In general you can only get effective access to legal defenses if you have a lot of money and also if you can prove that you have been deprived of income by your adversary. This means that the poor cannot get justice and also that if your environment is destroyed for someone else's profit, but you only lose ammenity rather than suffer direct financial loss, you have no case in Australia, with some rare regulatory exceptions. Our treatment of kangaroos and other animals is a symptom of this. The vast gaps in status between humans is another symptom. The most prevalent kind of cruelty is industrialised cruelty which permits an immense profit margin to be created by treating farm animals as if they were not alive in intensive farming. It is the same kind of mentality which saw ethnic persecution raised to new heights in Hitler's regime, which industrialised ethnic persecution to make a profit from it, by working people to death, even 'value-adding' in some cases where individuals reputedly made soap and lampshades out of human tissue. All creatures live by death - be it plant death or microbial death. We are genetic organisations of microbes - bacterial and microbial. (Lynn Margulis and Dorion Sagan, Acquiring Genomes, Perseus, 2002; Frank Ryan, Virolution, Collins 2009) In our bloodstreams micro-organisms stalk eachother and viral components of genomes define and defend our external territory. There is no way that we can ever get away from death. The tradition of a man introducing his son to hunting is an old one. It is the industrialisation of the killing traditions which seems to me to be so obscene and dangerous. The use of a gun is an industrial technique which greatly magnifies the reach of one person over another person or animal. With our industrial sized populations there is no way that high tech hunting can be fair or sustainable on other species. The killing of an animal for food, done directly by a person for their own survival is quite different from the killing of animals for profit and for other peoples' food, which distances the consumers from the moral and energy cost of their food supply. This distancing has coincided with default acceptance of cruelty, where once the cruelty would probably have been avoided in most circumstances, because of its emotional cost. There were traditions in hunting and gathering cultures of honouring the animal killed for food, and other traditions to spare different species or reduce the numbers killed. It is industrialisation which gives rise to our hugely overblown populations that are destroying their natural surroundings. Commercial industrialisation has institutionalised greed, simply in order to be able to sell more for less. Partly for this reason our species is not only growing too numerous for its own comfort, but individuals are succumbing to unnecessary diseases which will shorten their lives. Crimmins et al, “Changes in biological markers of health: Older Americans in the 1990s”, Journal of Gerontology: Medical Sciences, 60, 1409–1413,2005; Hossain, Kawar, & El Hanas, “Obesity and diabetes in the developing world—A growing challenge,” New England Journal of Medicine, 356, 2007, pp.213–215; J.C. Seidell, Seidell, J. C. (2000). Obesity, insulin resistance and diabetes—A worldwide epidemic, British Journal of Nutrition, 83 (Suppl. 1), S5–S8, 2000>] Industrialisation not only oppresses other creatures; it oppresses workers. Most of us are yoked to the factory system, even if we work in hospitals or offices. The lowest wages go to the people who work in the least humane jobs with the lowest status. The reason is that low status marginalises and disempowers workers and domestic animals, thus permitting greater profits to be made by those who control what they do and is done to them.

quark

Sun, 2010-04-04 09:51

40 years ago one never heard of so many incidents of cruelty such as the story of the shooting of the baby koala. This is just my observation but it appears to me that our standards have nosedived. I am shocked that the kangaroo shooter would allow his 4 year old to shoot kangaroos or to shoot any animal for that matter. A 4 year old simply does not have the motor coordination to shoot a moving target in the area needed to kill the animal cleanly without prolonged suffering . In addition I consider this a form of child abuse as the child needs to understand what he is doing since he is causing immense suffering. What option does a 4 year old have of declining to do as his father asks ? What understanding does a 4 year old have of the why he is committing the act of shooting an animal? If he is told that it is because his father thinks it is a cool thing to do what sort of questioning of authority will he learn? Even if in an extreme situation kangaroo meat were needed for food I still question whether it is appropriate to let a 4 year old practice his shooting skills on a real animal. The other theme that emerges in the article above is that animal cruelty is terrible because it leads to a transfer of this cruelty towards humans. Surely the act of cruelty is abhorrent in itself no matter who the victim? A person who is addicted to cruelty has a diseased mind and urgently needs treatment for this. If cruelty in our society is increasing then our society urgently needs treatment.

Vivienne (not verified)

Sun, 2010-04-04 08:33

Kevin Rudd will use the posting of Mr Burke as population minister to "sell" what he thinks is not a "bad thing" for Australia, while he and our elite will be protected by their property and wealth. We are being cajoled to shove over and share our limited liveable green coast, fertile land and urban areas with millions more people, but why? Of course there will be a bigger "tax base" but there will be more expenses too. Opposition immigration spokesman Scott Morrison said Mr Burke had become "minister for a big Australia" - as Mr Rudd had not changed his mind about the need to limit population growth. This appointment is all damage control - about "opportunities" of a big Australia, and about planning! However many people he manages to cram into Australia, we could never match the swarming masses of people in our South East Asia region, and already many of these nations are suffering from over-population. As for "prosperity", the costs to the public for infrastructure are not covered by the short-term benefits of population growth. This pumped up growth has meant an increase in housing costs, mortgage stress and homelessness. Only a few prosper but for most it means misery. Most of our wealth comes from agriculture and mining, and we don't need a bigger population in our cities for this. As for "national security", surely he doesn't mean more cannon fodder for the ADF? Tony Burke recently recommended more training for kangaroo "harvesters" to encourage China to buy their meat. He is still renegotiating with Russia to re-open the market. Agriculture Minister Tony Burke defended the "culling" of hundreds of kangaroos in Canberra, saying the animals would "starve" to death if numbers are not reduced! So much for accountability to public opinion, junk-science and compassion for wildlife! There are already sprawling and dirty cities in the world, and at a time of global world population blow-out, Kevin Rudd's whim of a "big Australia" is about business interests, not about conservation or about protecting the interests of the electorate.

Menkit Prince

Sun, 2010-04-04 03:23

Yes but where are all the kangaroo shooters now? They suddenly disappeared when the blog shifted ....did they chicken out? Run out of facts have you guys? menkit "It’s embarrassing for Australia that we eat our own wildlife ....I’m here to tell you it’s just not right. Simply do not buy, use or eat kangaroo products” ~ Steve Irwin Sign the most important petition ever created to help kangar

Menkit Prince

Sun, 2010-04-04 03:15

Excellent article, Tigerquoll. Additionally, Australian police often kill injured kangaroos using a shotgun which always requires multiple shots and is not humane. Why are they not educated about how to humanely kill a large animal? Better still, why don't they consult with a vet and wildlife carer first to see if the animal could be rehabilitated? So much is wrong with Australia's attitude to animals I barely know where to start. Most likely it starts because humans think animals were put here for humans to eat, wear and experiment on. None of these animal torturers had the slightest concern for their victim. If we respected all creatures and were proper caretakers (the real meaning of dominion in the bible) we would never hurt another soul. And please don't tell me animals don't have souls! Menkit "It’s embarrassing for Australia that we eat our own wildlife ....I’m here to tell you it’s just not right. Simply do not buy, use or eat kangaroo products” ~ Steve Irwin Sign the most important petition ever created to help kangar

ingmar lee (not verified)

Sun, 2010-04-04 01:21

Hi Tim, your essay recently appeared on the 'bcenvirowatch' and 'landwatch' discussion lists, where many BC enviro's communicate. I appreciated your piece very much and went to 'candobetter' and read more of your writing. It appears that you are from Canada so I'm hoping that you will please consider joining these listservs. We all need more of your excellent commentary! Cheers, Ingmar

John Marlowe

Sat, 2010-04-03 21:20

So when is Australia's society to be blessed with moral wealth? The promise of 'economic growth' is like Lasseter's gold? Who benefits from 'getting ahead'? Are we experiencing the undoing of the recently aspired goal of the Triple Bottom Line to a withdrawal back to human primitive desperate survival instinct of 'self'? Ruddism/Abbotism is all about spinning to perpetuate the self of those privileged, oblivious to most Australians right to a fair share and a safety net. LibLab are equally morally deprived to leave charities to pick up the can; to be sure they are seen to be seen casting a few coins to these charities before the cameras. Boom and bust economic cycles are after hundreds of years still out of control. Business is allowed to cast its workers quickly to the scrap heap with no moral duty of care. Banks are allowed to set their own rules. Economic dogma has delivered a chronic social plague just to enrich a few corporates. This is corporate aristocracy. Those that are not its victim like our aristocratic gated community we call 'Government' peddle its ideal ignoring growing shameful social costs and deprivations. Celebrating the Top 500 Rich List by BRW Magazine every year is a snub to those that got them there. Australia has fulfilled a class culture reminiscent of industrial England that it originally sought to distance itself from. LibLab governments have failed Australians and continue to do so.

quark

Sat, 2010-04-03 08:53

This quote within a quote from from some sort of Bible? "The Moral Consequences of Economic Growth" by Benjamin Friedman in address by Peter Scanlon to ATSE report Launch 2007 is intriguing "Freidman explains that growth, rather than simply creating a higher standard of living, is the key to effecting political and social liberalization in the third world. He shows that even the wealthiest of nations puts its democratic values at risk when growth stops. Merely being wealthy is no protection against a turn toward rigidity and intolerance when a country’s citizens lose the sense that they are getting ahead. " If this is true then most of human history has been at risk of "rigidity" and a feeling of not "getting ahead". Australia is growing very rapidly right now but I don't feel I am "getting ahead". Does anyone else?

Sheila Newman

Sat, 2010-04-03 01:39

Great poem and comments, Menkit. Where did the poem come from? We should have more poems on cdb.

Menkit Prince

Sat, 2010-04-03 01:23

THE KANGAROO’S PLEA Why do you hate us, cruel man with a gun? Why do you kill us? What have we done? You see, we are gentle, when we have no fear, But we’ll fight with courage, when danger is near. We belonged to this country, before white men came, We first knew the mountains, the rugged terrain, We feared the black man who hunted with spear, But most of us flourished, before you came here. Our ways are peaceful, our needs are but few, If you would like us, we could like you; If you say we are vermin, and we have no charms, Why is our image on your coat of arms? And when you torment us, and we die in pain For cash in your pocket, you truly won’t gain, Because when you finally come to the gate, And lay down the gun that was always your mate, They’ll ask you out yonder; just what have you done To deserve that inheritance beyond the sun? And you won’t get a glimpse of that heavenly park, You’ll go much lower down to a realm in the dark. To cherish Australia, should be your goal, Then please remember we are part of her soul, As is her bushland, the wattle, the streams, The moonlight on gumtips, that so softly gleams, So give up your shooting before it’s too late, Turn away from the slaughter, this orgy of hate, Take a job on a farm, in an orchard or mill; Please leave us in peace, on the plain and the hill.

Menkit Prince

Sat, 2010-04-03 01:20

Chris, I have met hunters face to face and frankly I find them very nice people, like anybody else. They are kind and loving to their families, hard workers, help their mates etc. The difference is they are in denial about the fact that animals have feelings and justify their killing with the usual excuses ('they don't feel anything', 'they are pests' and 'I'm helping the farmers'). But what if you are wrong? What if kangaroos are not 'grass-stripping pests' without feelings? What if they do have feelings just like you, your family, your dogs? Sure dogs have personalities but so do kangaroos and pigs. I know people who have pigs for pets who say they are more intelligent than dogs. Talk to any wildlife carer who will tell you that kangaroos have gentle, sweet, affectionate personalities and are far from mindless. I have a friend in S.A. who knew a wild kangaroo, a big male, who used to run up to her and hug her! He would visit her to be with her kangaroos that she rehabbed as orphaned joeys. That is until a bloody dog spooked it and he ran in front of a car. She was devastated, let me tell you. You might be surprised to find in fact native animals have the same emotions we have - they fear death, love live, protect their families, feel anger, jealousy, boredom, joy. All animals do. We cannot prove what another creature is thinking or feeling so how can you say with such certainty that kangaroos or pigs feel nothing when they are shot, stabbed and that it's only 'nerves' that makes them move? What if they experienced excruciating pain, terror like you could not ever imagine unless you were in the same position yourself? Wouldn't you feel bad that you had caused another sentient being pain? You say you 'bleed the animals out'. How would you like to be bled out? How would you like to watch your wife or child bled out? If you roo shooters truly don't enjoy watching animals suffer, why not watch animals happily grazing and just leave them alone? Killing them, destroying their families and mobs is ripping them apart just so you can get your $1100 a night. Isn't that a bit selfish? You say that it's just a question of different points of view but since when is the kangaroo or the pig's point of view considered? Did you ever get taught the Golden Rule 'Do Unto Others as You Would Have them Do Unto You'? Or does that only apply to humans? Are humans the supreme species or could all species possibly have equal value? If not, why not? If humans are so superior why are we destroying this planet? Even a worm or cockroach is not destroying his world so clearly we are the stupidest species, not the smartest. What if humans were the biggest pest on the planet and not kangaroos? We have caused the drought and removed 75% of the forests (thanks to livestock farming, logging, and of course, aborigines who lit extensive fires to flush out the kangaroos). We have polluted waterways, soil and air, overfished the oceans and caused mass extinction of species that have been evolving for millions of years. But does that make it OK to go around stabbing people in the heart and shooting them, bashing their kids to death because humans are pests? So why do it to a species that are not a pest and who can't fight back? Surely that is cowardice? You say kangaroos are out of control. Seven billion humans is 'out of control', not 27 million kangaroos. Since you like to quote 'facts' check out the current kangaroo populations for 2009 at www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/trade-use/wild-harvest/kangaroo/population/index.html#2009 . There are not 60 million kangaroos at all - I even doubt there are 27 million kangaroos since it's only an estimate and more likely to be much less. And by the way there are 4-5 times more sheep than kangaroos so why don't you refer to 'plagues of sheep'? There are more cows than kangaroos so what about 'plagues of cows'? There are almost as many people in Australia as there are kangaroos so what about 'plagues of humans'? Since you tell me to get my facts straight, how about you do a little research and get your facts straight? Go to www.nokangaroomeat.org and read the report 'Shot in the Dark' written by Dr Ben Dror Ami who spent 2 yrs undercover investigating chillers. His report was covered by the Sydney Morning Herald. His report shows there is a lot of contamination and diseases in kangaroo meat and conclusively proves that roo shooters do neck shots. As for fancy words, Chris, exotic diseases do come from pathogenic bacteria and it's rife in 'game' meat. Why else do you think Russia banned kangaroo meat in August 2008? You seem to think Russia is still importing kangaroo meat. On that same website read the report by the Canberra Environment + Sustainability Resource Centre which reports that kangaroos actually benefit the environment (unlike humans) by regenerating wild grasses and herbs, by aerating the soil, by helping soil ecosystems (unlike hoofed animals who cause soil erosion), by eating dry grasses that ignite easily in bush fires and so on. In other words, the more kangaroos the better for the environment. The less cows and sheep, the better for the environment. These are facts Chris, not opinions. Do your research before you accuse others of not getting their facts straight. More facts here this time from the CSIRO proving that kangaroos do not compete with sheep: www.publish.csiro.au/paper/WR9740027.htm Your example of kangaroos being stupid because they jump into a fence - if you study The Pathology of Native Australian Animals you will learn about how native Australian animals are extremely stress prone. Koalas can get so stressed out about losing their favourite tree that they stop breeding and die. It means that if kangaroos do something that looks stupid like running into a car it's not because it's stupid but because it is stressed out of its brain. Could it be that you roo shooters are all feeling defensive about the fact that you shoot kangaroos? No other country in the world eats their national icon or worse, feeds it to the dogs. Shame on us! If you were open to learning new information you would not so casually dismiss my original article on Kangaroo Meat as lacking factual evidence without at least checking my references. Could it be that what you think is a fact is nothing more than habitual thinking that you have never questioned. It's healthy to question yourself. Only arrogant people are unable to admit they could be wrong. I invite you to question yourself and the way you think. Or would that just be too painful? menkit "It’s embarrassing for Australia that we eat our own wildlife ....I’m here to tell you it’s just not right. Simply do not buy, use or eat kangaroo products” ~ Steve Irwin Sign the most important petition ever created to help kangar

Sheila Newman

Sat, 2010-04-03 01:07

The reason is that Australians have been heavily propagandized on the issue of immigration and population growth. See "Background on the Australian Multicultural Foundation" of 3 Apr 10 at http://candobetter.org/node/1928 . There are big business commitments to population growth. They have the backing of successive governments and the mainstream media. Millions of dollars are thrown at unknown academics to run surveys on our attitudes and try to massage them.

RichB

Fri, 2010-04-02 23:36

What is wrong with Australians and the Western world..Why do they continue to breed like flies.Are they not intelligent people?..Can they not see the damage that is being done to the environment and our wildlife...Why is it that countless boatloads of Asylum seekers are now landing on the shores of Australia without a whisper from the Australian population that oh so value the "Aussie way of life",but there is uproar about the plagues of kangaroos that are rampaging around the country and destroying the miserable farmers liveliehoods,and how much of a pest these lovely animals are..Then theres all the compalints from the white man about how useless the original people of Australia are...What is it with the white man..The destroyers and parasites of mother earth..I think the white man of Australia should have alot more to worry about than destroying the last of the wildlife in Australia......Your world is being wiped out from under your feet without you even knowing it......Alcholol,television........Government...

James Sinnamon

Fri, 2010-04-02 17:22

In the article, Amanda wrote:

Now demographers are discussing self contained satellite cities where people are contained within, never needing to leave, really.

For years, the growth pedlars have been perfectly happy to impose growth without bothering in any way to plan our cities to cope with that growth.

If they had to have growth, they could have at least adopted the sattelite city approach well before now, to avert the congestion that has been caused by too many people having to commute for outerlying suburbs to where the jobs were, but they did not.

In the 1960's Brisbane's trams were torn up as was the Brisbane to Gold Coast Railway line. The destruction of many rural railway services continued under the Queensland State Labor Government of Wayne Goss in the 1980's as recommended by his advisor Kevin Rudd.

From 1998, when the Beattie Labor Government won office, they continued to push population growth all along totally neglecting to upgrade Queensland's infrastructure, particularly its water and transport infrastructure.

Now that we are reaping the terrible combined consequences of population growth and no planning, everyone has suddenly become a convert to planning. See, for example, Queensland Deputy Premier Lucas's seemingly frank and forthright 'admission' of past mistakes by Queensland Governments and councils in the transcript of the SBS Insight program of 2 March 2010 "Housing 36 Million":

... The only way that we will actually do better in the future is making better use of public transport networks. In this country, we didn't build public transport, in fact, we ripped it up in the 1960’s, and we are now paying the price for that with most governments having to roll out extensive networks of public transport to actually make the place liveable.

Of course Lucas, is silent about his own Government's role perpetuating that problem by continuing to back road construction through most of the last decade to the detriment of public transport as described by the damning Auditor General's report of last year.

It's a safe bet that these bouts of supposed forthrightness and the newfound discoveries of the necessity for planning are no more than ploys to divert public's attention away from the more fundamental problem of population growth.

For the last three decades at least, failure to plan was practically mandated by the othodoxy of free market fundamentalism.

We can be confident that whetever planning occurs form now on will be the bare minimum necessary to grease the flow of profits from our pockets into the pockets of developers and to provide a facade calculated to fool sufficient numbers of the public that real planning is actually occurring.

James Sinnamon

Fri, 2010-04-02 14:50

Firstly, I need to confess that much of world geo-politics does not completely add up for me today. There seem to be two paradigms that appear, on the surface, to be mutually exclusive to explain world events.

On the one hand, Australia, is participating in an unjust war in alliance with the US and NATO against the people of Central Asia and the Middle East, which many plausibly argue appears to be also ultimately designed to destroy Russia and China. This war has been fraudulently justified on the pretext of the Big Lie of 9/11.

Yet on the other, in Australia, as in the US, our domestic commercial interests are being sold out to vested foreign interests, these days, principally China, the same country which apparently stands to be encircled by the so-called "War on Terror". This has been articulated in an article "Truth has fallen and has taken Liberty with it" by 9/11 Truth Movement supporter and war opponent Paul Craig Roberts:

As an economist, I am astonished that the American economics profession has no awareness whatsoever that the U.S. economy has been destroyed by the offshoring of U.S. GDP to overseas countries. U.S. corporations, in pursuit of absolute advantage or lowest labor costs and maximum CEO "performance bonuses," have moved the production of goods and services marketed to Americans to China, India, and elsewhere abroad. ...

This, of course, exactly applicable to Australia also with the Australian Governments having for decades fallen over themselves to allow the off-shoring of much of Australia's manufacturing base to China and, now, to allow Chinese commercial interests to buy up Australian mineral wealth, agricultural land, publicly owned untilities and real estate.

Exactly how and why these seemingly mutually contradictory policies is judged by the US and Australian ruling elites to be beneficial to them is hard to understand completely, but it, nevertheless, appears to be the case.

By having largely sold out our commercial interests in this way our Governments could actually be helping potential invaders to overcome many of the logistical difficulties that they would otherwise be facing as referred to in the comments by ID Langford, Jason Ransome and Mr Squiggle in the main article.

As an example, if the plans to allow the Chinese to build a new aluminium smelter north of Bowen are realised, then they will effectively have gained sovereignty over that part of Australia's territiory. If this seems far fetched, then read these words from the article "Bowen a sure thing for Chalco" in the Townsville Bulletin of 26 Jun 08, cited in my article "Stop the sell-off of Australia's mineral wealth!" of 2 Apr 09:

... schools discussed the possibility of introducing the Chinese language into their curricula to expand job opportunities for students.

In order to be assured employment in an industry located in Australia that extracts this country's mineral and energy wealth, one will need to learn a foreign language?

Another proposal that has been advanced is that imported Chinese provide the skilled and unskilled labor on large scale infrastructure projects to be built by Chinese owned companies. (See "The Australian proposes apartheid 'solution' to Australia's labour shortage 'crisis'" of 15 May 08/)

With large tracts of Australian land effectively controlled by interests loyal to another country, it would not be difficult to envision these effectively becoming beachheads in advance of the invading force should that threat ever become a reality as smuggling the necesary personnel and weapons inside of them would surely pose little practical difficulty.

If such footholds on Australian soil were to be quickly resupplied by air and sea, how much less insurmountable would be the logisitical difficulties faced by 21st century invaders compared to those faced by the Japanese in 1942?

Could we then hope to be able to defeat an invasion? Would even a government which, unlike the current Government, was loyal to the people of this country, have any choice but to give in to the military and economic blackmail that could then be applied?

It should be pointed out that back in the first half of this century, the task faced by Australia's defence planners was not easy. They could have easily spent so much on defence that the economy would have suffered inordinately.

On the other hand, if they had spent too little for the benefit of the rest of the economy, then the Japanese invasion could well have succeeded.

In the end they arrived at what proved to be the right balance by maintaining a relatively small defence force and defence manufacturing sector (to be able to defend against light raids as they put it), but had, in place, the plans and technological expertise necessary to expand both at the point when the threat of invasion became more substantial.

As explained by Andrew Ross in "Armed and Ready: the industrial development and defence of Australia, 1900-1945", cited in the article, this plan worked very well, causing the Japanese Army to veto the Japanese Navy's invasion plans. In the actual fighting, Australia more than pulled its own weight in the Pacific Theatre (as well as in the Middle East and Europe) as President Truman attested.

However, back then, as today, matters could so easily have turned out very differently.

Vivienne (not verified)

Fri, 2010-04-02 14:00

Kevin Rudd is Anglican and Tony Abbott is Catholic, so both are presumably "Christian". However, they have no compassion or sense of social justice for even a basic human right - a place to live! Australia used to be the Lucky Country! A basic Christian duty is to care for the disadvantaged, the sick, those seeking asylum, and the outcast. However, their masters are the mass global markets, the Banks, investors and commercial interests, clearly not the people of Australia, or God! Tony Abbott refused to to sympathetic to the homeless, saying it was basically their fault! Neither leader mentioned mental health even once during the health debate– despite its status after heart disease and cancer as Australia's third biggest contributor to overall death and disability. Our planet is being stressed by anthropogenic climate change but where is their duty to take care of Creation for the next generation? We are culturally, financially and educationally being forced to compete internationally for what should be preserved for Australian citizens - housing, education, natural and cultural heritage and public facilities. Our treasured Australian lifestyles and culture are being traded on the world market as a global asset, for the benefit of property developers and investors.

quark

Fri, 2010-04-02 10:02

Who says Salt's article is not seen as treacherous? That's exactly as I see it and the fact that it was published on April First does not ameliorate this impression. Why would anyone write such an article even tongue in cheek? The article is dangerous.

Milly (not verified)

Fri, 2010-04-02 09:28

According to the realestate.com.au website: Not only has Australia welcomed many people from overseas to make their home in Australia,

"We have also welcomed with open arms investment in Australian real estate by foreign nationals.

"The approach of the current Government is consistent with others that have gone before it in encouraging foreign investment because it believes it aligns with Australian community interests."

!

Who's interests, theirs or ours?

1) a foreigner can acquire a house through being left it as part of a relative's estate.

2)They can buy "off the plan" but no more than half the units when there are 10 or more.

It is more than English or New Zealanders chasing the sun, or those married to citizens! Investors from the United States, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Singapore and China spent the most.
Another report says that Chinese and Hongkong bargain hunters snap up ONE-THIRD of the top-end Aussie PROPERTY market. They can’t believe their luck! In China, the best you can get is a 99 year lease.

According to The Age,( Hockey Contradicts Abbott on Property, 1st April) Opposition Treasury spokesman Joe Hockey says that: "There is obvious increasing evidence that there has been a dramatic increase in foreign investment following the Rudd government's relaxation of the rules," he said.

''This is contributing to a significant increase in property prices which is pricing out many people from the market and putting upward pressure on rents.''

However, Tony Abbott, despite being a confessing Catholic and presumably having "Christian" values that support human rights, he told ABC radio: ''Aren't people entitled to get the best price they can for their property?"

The means justifies the end, even if the benefactors are foreigners and property investors and the "victims" are the Australian public whose concerns he is supposed to represent!

Some streets in Balwyn, Kew were up to 80% owned by foreigners, wanting to take advantage of "cheap" prices and schools for their children - an access route into Australia!

Agent Provocateur

Fri, 2010-04-02 05:57

I wonder whether my Grandfather (WW1) would have been glad to know where Australia is now heading. He died at 32 of TB after Yellow Gas was used at 'The Front' in France - where he was stationed. (Early Australian Airforce) I believe he thought he was fighting for Australia via its Allies... My own father, (his son) was in WW11 - in the Australian Army and once told me that he remembers the order to head for Darwin (to fight the expected Japanese onslaught) - and believed that if he were sent, he would not return alive. I wonder if either man ever contemplated their children and grandchildren - in un-armed combat - fighting for their country - and their civil rights - against a much slyer invasion. .. one of Invitation infact - from our own Government. Selling Australia to the highest bidder - outbidding Australian Nationals - who are being made outcasts in their own land!

Agent Provocateur

Fri, 2010-04-02 05:02

Re: Anna Bligh - Parasites in Paradise: Managing Malignant Growth **Population growth and preserving our environment, a classic oxymoron.** ... When's Queensland's next Election? I like this too... "The 'global financial crisis' will continue regardless, mainly because governments spend more than they ‘earn’ to present a façade of successful management meanwhile spending our children’s future now.

Agent Provocateur

Thu, 2010-04-01 23:20

As Vivienne says: "Some "diversity" is vibrant and stimulating..." But... "Australia is becoming a bland, anonymous, plastic, generic place to live, an economy, rather than a unique nation and culture. And... A vast majority of our goods are imported from overseas, as is our population. " Finally ... "Continued immigration is based on questionable economics, not the love of multculturalism!" Vivienne's voice is certainly not a voice in the wilderness; many people are coming to the realisation that they are being squeezed: financially, in their value systems and in regard to their civil rights. What Equity do Australians Have in their Own Nation - the Country of Australia?

Agent Provocateur

Thu, 2010-04-01 22:57

Hello John - & James Yes, it does seem that the - (quote attributed to Marie Antoinette) Let them eat cake attitude of Rudd and other politicians who live in 'Rarified Air' - above the rest of us - are making sweeping decisions, which make them appear Grand in the eyes of their peers in office in other countries. People reduced to living ...Shoe box lives - as they do in other over-populated nations such as Hong Kong... because of decisions made for us - not by us, the tax paying, voting population, who are forced to support the decision with our money - but not equity - in the process.

Agent Provocateur

Thu, 2010-04-01 22:41

Thankyou, Sheila Newman, for the setting out and graphics for my article here! I can see that this topic is very much on everyone's mind - let's hope that people will finally see the light and stick together over the issue of stabilising Australia's population - through Immigration control and more appropriate planning and infrastructure - especially in regard to water !

John Marlowe

Thu, 2010-04-01 17:11

The repeated policy waves of immigration to Australia from transportation to free settlement to gold fever to industrial boom to soldier settlement to 'populate or perish' to refugees to multiculturalism, have delivered us a melting pot of cultures, like a mini-Europe.

I still receive my old school magazine annually. It's now 'spot the Anglo'. Never did we have an Aboriginal attend and as far as I know none since. Never was a scholarship offered by the school to an Aboriginal student. Never was there an attempt to teach all us Anglo students back in the 1970s about Australia's traditional cultures. Now they're reducing the time allocated to teaching Australian history at secondary schools. So much time is spent on teaching foreign languages instead.

Read:

Battle looms over cuts to history curriculum

'Making history in the classroom'

Education now favours business. Social policy now favours the immigrant. Both still disenfranchise the Aboriginal peoples. The Anglo mob supposedly can look after themselves - or so the economic policy assumes. What the policy doesn't measure is society. It doesn't want to expose the human cost on local culture - unemployment, families forced to move away from traditional roots because of unaffordable housing. It doesn't measure local displacement, depression, substance abuse, marginalisation, imprisonment or suicide.

As the numbers keep coming, the demographics change, housing demand rises, the voting patterns change, the politicans change.

Globalisation, free trade, mass immigration is diluting Australia's culture. Who are we now, us Australians, but a mixed immigrant mob? We are told we are international citizens.

While Australia's Aboriginal people and sixth generation immigrants are buried under each successive layer of each new layer of immigrant crying special treatment and funding.

This is not a comment on race or a person's origin. It is a comment on the rights of a people to their birthplace. Such a right should not be lost and sacrificed for any perceived benefit some newcomer may promise.

This is a call for heritage and birth rights to stand up against PM Rudd's newcomer takeover policy and his warped Hong Kong vision for a 'Big' congested foreign Australia!

No Australian aspires to live a congested shoebox life of Hong Kong.

Rudd with his aristocratic pension and privileged superannuation beckoning must be convinced he is above shoe box living - 'let them eat cake...' ...?

What the Eora Aboriginal People saw coming from the shores in 1788 can perhaps be slightly more appreciated by those colonial descendents now seeing their own homes and way of life have disappeared around them. I can imaging their sense of terror seeing the sailing ships invading.

Rudd's 'Big Australia' policy is socially degrading for Australia.

Both LibLab dominant political parties remain 20th Century baby boomer blinkered to the short term economic data to drive their policies. They seem to know no better. They represent Neanderthal thinking in our 21st Century world which demands humane and triple bottom line ecologically sustainable imperatives to survive.

JM

admin

Thu, 2010-04-01 15:45

As I have posted to the article "Kangaroo Meat: Why it's Not Good Bush Tucker!" I am closing the comments there and ask that discussion continues here, Apologies for incorrect links to comments Also, my apologies for the bug in the software that creates the links on the main page to the comments for the article "Kangaroo Meat: Why it's Not Good Bush Tucker!" Links to the second page of comments should be, as an example: http://candobetter.org/node/908&page=1#comment-4447 ... rather than: http://candobetter.org/node/908#comment-4447. I will try to find a solution to this problem. - JS

admin

Thu, 2010-04-01 15:37

I am closing the comments on this article, Please continue the discussions underneath Tigerquoll's article "Kangaroo Meat Confessions of a serial wildlife killer" of 31 Mar 10. Apologies for incorrect links to comments Also, my apologies for the bug in the software that creates the links on the main page to these comments. Links to the second page of comments should be, as an example: http://candobetter.org/node/908&page=1#comment-4447 ... rather than: http://candobetter.org/node/908#comment-4447.

James Sinnamon

Thu, 2010-04-01 15:27

RichB, Firstly, I fully share your revulsion at the deeds of which the serial wildlife killer, now amongst us, openly boasts. Whilst the environmental consciousness of some farmers is appalling, we should still acknowledge that many others do want to do the right thing. Furthermore, most human economic activity has environmental impacts as bad, if not worse than farming and, to be honest, that would have to include your own, which depends upon the extraction of humankind's once off endowment of non-renewable fossilised fuels. The rate of extraction will guanrantee their will be nothing left for future generations, that is if thy can survive threatened runaway global warming and atmospheric, marine and terrestrial pollution. For us to maintain a civilised and humane society, we will need to retain an agricutural system, but, obviously one that is more sustainable than our current system.

Vivienne (not verified)

Thu, 2010-04-01 11:11

The new tourism slogan for Australia: "There's nothing like Australia". Australia's defining modern culture, limited by a short Colonial history, is being purged. We have so many cultures already represented in Australian cities, and the masses keep coming, despite the fact that with advanced communications today we can't justify continued Multiculturalism. Some "diversity" is vibrant and stimulating, but now some original Aussies are being overwhelmed by immigrants! Australia Day address by Governor General of Australia, Quintin Bryce, was at her old primary school in Parramatta. There was not one "original" Australian child there (maybe Indigenous?)! Patriotism has to be replaced by career-driven ADF personnel rather than patriotism for our country - just who or what do we represent? We are losing vast quantities of native vegetation and wildlife are under threat. We are world-class eliminators of wildlife species, we have the record for mammal extinctions, and have the highest population growth rate in the developed world. Australia is becoming a bland, anonymous, plastic, generic place to live, an economy, rather than a unique nation and culture. A vast majority of our goods are imported from overseas, as is our population. Canada, UK and the USA are the main countries addicted to immigration, while the 10 most wealthy countries, except USA, all have populations lower than Australia. Continued immigration is based on questionable economics, not the love of multculturalism! What is Australia's culture as it really hasn't been allowed to develop? The drive for developments and population growth is driving us to a "nothingness", a generic nation, making us instead of "nothing like Australia" into a bland civilisation just like many others!

chris palmer (not verified)

Thu, 2010-04-01 09:11

rich b yes humans are the biggest environmental hazard but if we were still living like the aboriginals or any native tribe there would still be the need to harvest animals for furs and meat and farm ect. and the reason that i don't come across as intelligent is because i'm dislexic. i've never been to bright with the book work but with my hands i can do just bout anything. i've been thinking about going back to mechanical fitting but i'll still roo shoot 2 nights a week and weekends. the best thing about this forum is that its got spell check lol. and you dont actually see how bad my dislexica is.

Tigerquoll

Wed, 2010-03-31 22:49

In response to the above comment 'New Zealand plagued with possums' [25-Mar-2010], by 'Anonymous (not verified)'...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bugger the "wee cute" crap. Backyard mom and pop nonindigenous New Zealanders are clearly not trying to remove the Australian brushtail possum that their forebears misguidedly introduced in the 1800s.

Obviously they are perpetuating their forefathers' backward fur trade to international commercialisation!

"Many anti-fur people will argue that by allowing a fur trade to exist, you are by default making sure that the possum will never be eradicated in New Zealand. The NZ government has come to accept that the possum may never be completely eliminated." [Debandada - another possum exploiter and perpetuator.]

What pathetic defeatism! And I thought Kiwis were no longer slow, except perhaps at cricket.

1080 is a proven cruel poison. It is used by backward states and dare I say by Tasmania's Department of Primary Industries, Parks, Water and Environment (note how 'Environment' gets remindedly tagged on at the end). Hopefully less backward after this last election.

Yes, the New Zealand Government pends NZ80 million a year of taxpayers money supposedly 'controlling' the possum, but is it getting anywhere? If I were a NZ taxpayer I would like to see DOC's credit card statements.

To answer your question about NZ DOC, read the following previous article I posted 4-Dec-09 to attempt to problem solve this ecologically damaging NZ issue. Send a copy to NZ DOC. Get 'em to reply. Get 'em off their arses!

Blaming the possum is crack brained backward. It's like blaming someone for being adopted. Think about it. Kiwi prejudice is found no stronger than in the rampant hatred for Australian possums. I think it must be a cultural inferiority complex, but Kiwis introduced them, so start acting mature and deal with the problem.

Brushtail Possums are a destructive pest in NZ - but is persevering with a backyard fur trade New Zealand's ethical solution?

Tiger Quoll
Snowy River 3885
Australia

RichB

Wed, 2010-03-31 17:10

Yes your English is very hard to make any sense of,but hey never mind..Im a mechanical fitter also working in the offshore oil/gas industry,and most of the fitters I work with are quite intelligent people.You certainly dont come across as being very intelligent,so I dont know what kind of fitter you are..You also come across as a very agressive type of a person with a filthy mouth...Are you bringing up your Son to be like you,a shining example of a kind,respectable Human Being,doesnt sound like it...Oh and Chris a little bit of information for you...Dont think you realise this,but the biggest pest and environmental vandals on this earth is in fact Human beings.Would you say kangaroos are more of an environmental pest than Human Beings,and if so why..and please dont start bleating on about farmers,as all they do is whinge,its either too dry,then its too wet.I have not a jot of sympathy for farmers,as they are one of the biggest environmental vandals on earth.Hope to get an intelligent sounding answer from you....

chris palmer (not verified)

Tue, 2010-03-30 21:49

like i said previously in this thread i'm a mechanical fitter and welder by trade i could go back to that any time i wanted. its a choice and a real job, and yeah mate i do go to the local on a Friday night actually but my gun license means more to me than getting in a blue with some idiot, at times i feel like sorting out the idiots at the pub but it's just not worth it. let me guess your some vegan greenie, that thinks we all should devote our lives to some rock moss that in danger from horse piss. yeah there defensless animals but big whoop mate, who cares. and mate i know who would come off second best. the only thing stopping me from getting in to the army as a sniper to put my skills to use for this country is the fact that you have to lick arse to get any where in the army. I'd love to see you out there getting your hands bloody, gutting roo's lifting them on to the rack. mate i've lived in the bush all my life i'm as hard as they come. suppose thats why i dont understand why all the soft city people have a cry a bout a few roo's getting shoot, look until ya's actually get out there and see australia and the damage they do and actually go roo shooting, stop having a fucken whinge about something you know nothing about put the emotional crap aside and there nothing wrong with controlling numbers of an over populated group of animals,

RichB

Tue, 2010-03-30 20:46

Chris Palmer I have to say you come across as being a bit of a mindless Imbecile...Why dont you go out and get a real job, you Moron..You sound like the kind of bloke that goes down to the local on a Saturday night and picks fights with blokes smaller than yourself,because you are a coward.You can go out and shoot defensless animals but I bet you couldnt go out and pick on someone your own size...I would love to meet you person to person,then we would see how hard you really are..You braindead Moron..

Vivienne (not verified)

Tue, 2010-03-30 20:33

A forest is a living system - ongoing cycles of birth and death, growth and decay. It may appear as if nothing is changing but countless natural cycles are at work every day and night. So according to VicForest the EEG protesters only have an "emotional or intellectual interest"! What interests are there's? Purely financial, destructive and predatory. We should all have this connection with our natural heritage. Some isolated potoroos had to be "discovered" to convince them that they harboured endangered animals? Protected old-growth forests should be presumed to be the habitat of many mixed and vulnerable species. Surely they don't have to be caught on film! Approximately 25% of global greenhouse gas emissions come from clearing, logging and degradation of the world's intact forests. The biodiversity and rich number of species in old growth forests have spiritual, ecological and aesthetic values that can't be quantified - and it is almost heresy to suggest that logging in these areas is defensible for short-term gain. Many of these trees are over 500 years old and can't be simply be replaced by new growth. Our Brumby government is going down in history for being non-transparent, non-consultative, environmentally destructive and corrupted by short-term-ism and greed.

chris palmer (not verified)

Tue, 2010-03-30 15:50

there's a loop hole in the claws that people shooting with an accredited shooter, can if deemed competent by the accredited person to assist in them in there duties it doesn't actually state that they can't shoot the roo's while under the supervision of an a credited shooter, i was just getting my point across to tiger quoll that it's not poaching in any way shape or form if you have the correct license's. i honestly think that any one and every one should be aloud to shoot roo's with no limitations, its plain and simple there's to many of them i boxed 114 of them last night and could have easily shot more, but the night isn't long enough, also got 26 pigs there worth more but harder to find even tho there in plague proportion to unlike a roo a pig has a mind and thinks as soon as a pig see's you, your dog, a spotlight ect they do the bolt. and this instinct isn't from being in a spot light before cause like a roo they'd be dead, nothing roo, goat, pig, deer, cat, rabbit, fox or dingo lives to tell the tale when i get my sights on it. a few of my cousins came up to my place last weekend and where trying to challenge me to see wat i could and couldnt do with my .223, there was a hare about 600 to 650 yards away and they put money on it that i couldnt hit it, more fool them, took its head clean off and just to show them it wasnt a fluke i placed the other 4 rounds in to the carcass. look nothing that get shoot by a professional feels a like, it's oh look a light and there dead before they even hear the shot. now any other animal would be long gone after the first shot. but no a mob of roo's are the stupidest mob of animals in the world they jump 15-20 meters away and stop look back then start eating again if the paddock is big enough you can take out a mob of 20 within half and hour, and you only have to move your ute about 20meters in a circle. if they had any kind of smarts they would dissappear after the first shot, still doesnt help tho there just as perdictable on the hop as standing still just sit there and wait watch them threw the scope get the highest point while on the hop line it up and let her rip in the 6 years i've been shooting i've only missed maybe 10 roos that are on the hop and they were clean misses i dint nick the animal

Scott

Tue, 2010-03-30 12:13

Yeah those city slickers will do that, maybe they were eating KFC as well. I remember when I used to live in Roebourne, WA the kids used to be very good at skinning and gutting kangaroos. These were mainly indigenous kids though and the roo was roasted that night and eaten by all, no waste. I don't recall kids shooting the kangaroos even back then. I took your advice and had a look at rooshooter.com.au and the first thing I saw was the claim that : Kangaroo shooting is done by qualified professional shooters who are registered with and closely monitored by the various Australian State Government nature conservation departments and the Federal Government meat authority. This was then backed up by one of your earlier posts: you have to hold a special license to harvest kangaroos in Australia, issues after an accuracy test and 2 tafe courses are passed and your vehicle is up to spec and registered threw the states macro-pod harvesting agency the license is issued by the state you live in, the shooters association of Australia has nothing to do with it except issuing me with a gun license saying i can legally own a firearm,you must have a qld macro-pod harvesting registration number to btw and there is a special license, if anyone with out this license is caught shooting roo's it is classed as poaching and they get the book thrown at them with a jail term in toe. Call me a nitpicker but does your 4 year old son have these qualifications? 50 roos with 8 misses that still didn't get away, good thing dad was there to clean up the mess......

DavidZPG (not verified)

Tue, 2010-03-30 11:58

In reply to Tiger Quoll, I'm not perpetuating division. I'm just stating my opinion that the ACF was a bunch of gutless wonders on population and immigration in 1974, and they've got worse in the 36 years since. Australia's population in 1974 was 11-million. I think its one of Gareth Hardin's sayings, but oh so true ---- "Whatever your cause its a lost cause with population control". Immigration worsens foreign debt, so we have to export more woodchips, so we have to log more old growth forests. If you belong to the ACF, cancel your membership and join Marie Stopes International. MSIA -- under a lot of womens rights and maternal health spin-clouds --- actually issue contraceptives and do a few abortions. Dont whatever you do give away The Pill over the internet. Prof Alan Fels and his ACCC with visible assistance from the AMA and US giant pharma Schering-Plough, jailed me 12 times for running a website called "CrowdedPlanet" in 1999-2001.

Peter Bright

Tue, 2010-03-30 09:52

The Tasmanian population is split between those earnestly wanting to conserve our precious Old Growth Forests and those wanting to destroy them for financial gain. Sometimes the division spills over into violence. For one of the most repulsive examples of bad behaviour by forest workers against peaceful environmental protectors, have a look at the U-Tube video here at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzm1RBqCFWE but please be warned that the viciousness shown and the language used are extreme. As at March 30th, 2010 the men seen attacking the two confined and helpless victims are before the court. You may read more in the Tasmanian Times article here: http://tasmaniantimes.com/index.php?/weblog/article/forestry-worker-admi... which starts as follows: "UPDATE: A TASMANIAN logging contractor admitted he “went on a rampage” when protesters blocked a forestry road, a court has heard. "Rodney Arthur Howells, 51, of Orford, told police in a video-recorded interview that he used a sledgehammer to smash up an old car while two protesters were inside the vehicle which blocked a road in the Upper Florentine Valley ... " Peter Bright Hobart Tasmania

Vivienne (not verified)

Tue, 2010-03-30 09:10

The UN's wildlife trade organisation has turned down Tanzania's and Zambia's requests to sell ivory, amid concern about elephant poaching. Most conservation groups were delighted that the Tanzanian and Zambian bids were turned down. "This is a real victory for elephants," said Jason Bell-Leask, director of Southern African operations with the International Fund for Animal Welfare (Ifaw). However, the real problem is poaching, and continues due to the continued existence of illegal domestic ivory markets across parts of Africa and Asia. Nigeria, the Democratic Republic of Congo and Thailand are picked out as the worst offenders. Ivory can fetch up to $1,800 per kilo in Asia. The Zambian government said it had planned to use the proceeds of the sale of ivory stockpiles to fund conservation projects. More like Dracula in charge of the Blood Bank with their poor record of poaching and illegal sales of ivory! However, meeting in Doha, the UN's Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species rejected the proposals.

terri collins (not verified)

Tue, 2010-03-30 00:44

to chris yes it is as easy as choosing a small or large macca's meal, he doesnt even bat an eye lid at them when i first went out shooting with him i grabbed one of the joeys and tried to take it home with us, chris went off and killed it i felt bad but i understand why he lives by the you gotta be cruel to be kind theory cause well its true it's a sad fact but it has to be done. it's not cruel or inhumane the way he does it, he does it by the book. if he can he tries to avoid shooting doe's for the fact that well i dont think he actually likes to kill the joey's, he might not flinch or have any compassion for the joey if he does shoot a doe's that has a joey but he doesnt smile for a while after. so i think it does in a way affect him when he has to kill a joey just he's not the type to show it. he's gunna be pissed at me for saying that but well he isn't a cold heartless killer like most of you may think.

terri collins (not verified)

Tue, 2010-03-30 00:33

hi all look i'm a chick and go out every now and then shooting with chris and yes he told me he said about our son going along look its something that as an animal lover i see your point of view on the situation , i used to hate it until i started going out shooting with him and there is actually nothing morally wrong with it at all, chris kills every animal with the utmost respect and never hurts or injuries any joeys they get a quick and painless death like the rest of the roos in his sites, in the last 6 years we've been together i think i've only seen him misses 10 times and that wasn't a complete miss that was a neck shot instead of a head shot, he truely is a master at what he does, and plus the look on his face when he teaches his son and spends time with him out there is worth any amount of roo's lives, i have a photo of chris with our son and the first pig he shot the smile on chris's face i've only seen a few time , when we got married and when our son was born. it's like any thing if you love it you excell at it and do it right. look what happens out there is up to the individual dont judge all roo shooters on the ones you see in the papers giving them a bad name they arent doing anything wrong, there making a living of the land and helping out the local farmers. if cattle were australian wildlife would you all be lobbing to stop them being farmed???? or trying to make life harder for the beef industry i think not.

chris palmer (not verified)

Tue, 2010-03-30 00:03

lol just fueled me ute up at the bp in dalby with a 32 roos and 8 pigs on the back, there were a bus load of city slickers there lol, never seen so many peeps near threw up and crying lmao why do people react to it like that if you dont like wat we do in the bush stay in the city. might have been cause watto and i were eating kfc while we were fueling up dont know. you all need to harden up. its the easiest thing a person can do for a living. yet again your all just turning the situation back around to emotional crap the roo's dont feel a thing they dont even know wats happened to em. And yeha roo's may have been here for thousands of years but i can tell ya this i'll be shooting them till the day i die and i wont even make an impact on there numbers in australia, my son is an up and coming roo shooter to at the age of 4 he can skin and gut a roo nearly as quick as me and over the last 4 weekends he has shoot over 50 roos with only 8 misses they still didnt get away tho like always dad was there to clean up the mess. my advice is roo shooters are here to stay deal with it weather it's leagally or illegally roos will be shoot till the end of time or at least untill they learn to shoot back. if you dont like it dont purchase any of the products and you'll be rite out of site out of mind.

Tigerquoll

Mon, 2010-03-29 22:51

Hello Bertram, Your feedback is appreciated. My facts have been sourced locally, yet I am receptive to the need to verify facts. Are you with Friends of Five Forests (FOFF) and if so I am uncertain which map you refer to, since many are listed on the FOFF website, as follows: Downloadable information Harvesting plan - Mumbulla State Forest Cpts 2133 & 2135 (1.4MB) Harvesting plan - Bermagui State Forest Cpt 2001 (730kb) Harvesting plan 1- Bermagui State Forest Cpt 2002 (350kb) Harvesting plan 2- Bermagui State Forest Cpt 2002 (350kb) Harvesting plan - Bermagui State Forest Cpt 2004 (157kb) Harvesting plan maps - Bermagui State Forest Cpt 2004 (1.3Mb) Harvesting plan - Bermagui State Forest Cpt 2005 (163kb) Harvesting plan maps - Bermagui State Forest Cpt 2005 (1.3Mb) Forestry - economic realities.pdf By Judy clark Forests N.S.W. Harvesting Plan - Cpts 2032,2035 Murrah SF Adaptive management an Australian Perspective-1999 (240 kb) Options Forestry - Acting on Uncertainty (2 Mb) Cheers, Tiger Quoll Snowy River 3885 Australia

Anonymous (not verified)

Mon, 2010-03-29 13:07

Kangaroos are NOT mindless and they are NOT parasites. They have managed to live here 16 million years in perfect harmony with their environment. It is called evolution and adaption to the environment.

Kangaroos have evolved perfectly to live in Australian conditions and to add value to their land. They do not need fossil fuels, they do not cut down trees, they do not emit methane gases, they use a frugal amount of water, they fertilise soils with their excrement, they help prevent bushfires by chopping down tall grasses, are well-adapted to drought, and do not destroy the root systems of native grasses like livestock.

A 2002 report studying the grazing pressure caused by kangaroos indicated that scientific evidence is lacking that kangaroos reduce wool production or sheep carrying capacity.
Kangaroos are being used as scapegoats for the damage done by humans and their livestock.

Kangaroos are genuine indigenous and rightful inhabitants of our land, and should be protected from opposing commercial interests - the meat industry and "plague" mentality created by graziers and farmers who don't want to learn to live within environmental limitations.

The damage done by humans in 220 years needs a lot of explaining to justify that we ourselves are not the mindless parasites you describe.

Editorial comment: Please continue discusion on "Kangaroo Meat - confessions of a serial wildlife killer"

(As also posted on the second comments page) I am closing the comments on this article,

Please continue the discussions underneath Tigerquoll's article "Kangaroo Meat - confessions of a serial wildlife killer" of 31 Mar 10.

I am closing the comments on this article, because the bug in the installed version drupal comment moduke (see below) makes continued discussion here unwieldy,

Apologies for incorrect links to comments

Also, my apologies for the bug in the software that creates the links on the main page to these comments.

Links to the second page of comments should be, as an example:

http://candobetter.org/node/908&page=1#comment-4447

... rather than:

http://candobetter.org/node/908#comment-4447.

Scott

Mon, 2010-03-29 13:06

I wasn't inferring that you hunt wolves from a helicopter, you would need to go somewhere like Alaska to do that. I was just trying to make the point that an important part in the evolution of any species is defence from predators and white settlement in Australia (and America) has presented endemic species like kangaroos with the deadliest predator of them all. The chances of kangaroos developing any behavioural defences from shooters such as avoiding the spotlight are practically zero as they don't live to tell the tale. Their defence against dingoes and domestic dogs is something they have learned over thousands of years. I would suggest that the kangaroos you have seen drowning in dams have become stuck in mud, not every tactic is perfect. For the record most kangaroos can swim and have been observed doing this both inland and in the ocean, usually to get to islands. In Perth we have put some western greys on Herrison Island (in the CBD area) and they occasionally swim the width of the Swan River to get to the "mainland", fortunately they always decide they prefer the island and swim back. I would also suggest that making the choice as to whether a joey will live or die should be a bit more challenging than deciding on the size of your McDonalds meal. For a start any joey that is still in the pouch whether its a pinky or not is not going to survive without its mother. Further the majority of joeys at foot that may or may not be near their mother when she is shot will also not survive in her absence. As you have probably noticed even an inpouch joey can bolt from the pouch when its mother is shot and take off into the darkness. A joey's ability to avoid the hunter is not an indication that it can survive without its mother, it is completely irrelevant. I know roo shooters normally use the logic that if it can get away it can fend for itself but this type of thinking is just burying your head in the sand. There is a moral argument here concerning the cruelty directed towards a sentient being, not a mindless, grass stripping pest.

chris palmer (not verified)

Mon, 2010-03-29 12:25

1. its only poaching if the animal is protected form all licensed shooting example koalas, wombats platypus. 2. why is it wrong explain that no one can cause there is no right or wrong just different points of view. 3. 71% of roos shot in Australia are exported to Russia for human consumption, 25% for pet food and 4% are shot only for there skins. but i guess someone that isn't in the industry wouldn't have a clue about wat the meat is really used for, i shoot only for human consumption. 4. wombats, koalas and platypus are protected by law roo's arent protected if you have a marco pods harvesting licence and mate i dare you to eat a dogs liver and see if you live to tell the tail. 5. cause were Australian not Korean, dog is a delicacy to Koreans as is kangaroo to most of the world. 6.so should people that own cats then have to pay for all the wildlife they kill. all we do is make a good living of an over populated community of animals keep the numbers down for everyone. and i can get a different job when ever i want i'm a mechanical fitter/welder by trade but i choose to do what i love. 7. if you knew the facts and were aware of what really happens you'd be arguing the point not the emotional crap 8. i agree cause 98% of the cowboys hooning around the bush culling roo's aren't accredited and there shooting roos that i can make good money off. poacher's should have the book thrown at them they dont treat the animals the way professional's do. 9. if you knew anything about the Australian bush you'd know not much can actually live of the native grasses so when white fellas came and introduces good feed the roos got outta control. put a gold fish in a small tank it grows to the size that suit it's environment.... put the same gold fish in a big tanks and it will grow bigger to suit that environment if there is sufficient food. 10. you have to hold a special license to harvest kangaroos in Australia, issues after an accuracy test and 2 tafe courses are passed and your vehicle is up to spec and registered threw the states macro-pod harvesting agency the license is issued by the state you live in, the shooters association of Australia has nothing to do with it except issuing me with a gun license saying i can legally own a firearm,you must have a qld macro-pod harvesting registration number to btw and there is a special license, if anyone with out this license is caught shooting roo's it is classed as poaching and they get the book thrown at them with a jail term in toe. 11. the government states an accuracy test must be past at 100 yard, 5 out of 5 shots in an inch and a half circle at 100 yards it like the size of a coke lid at that distance, and on a typical night i will take shots in excess of 450yards with a ruger mark2 m77 varmint rifle .223 caliber and hit it in the eye 9 out of 10 time, the other time it goes up its nasal cavity, roo shooters can out shot any long distance sportsman shooter by a long shot we depend on it for a living and shooting targets is a waste of time unless your siteing in your new rifle. 12. Queensland macro-pod harvesting branch is located in charleville, and each shooter has to purchase tags with the numbers on it so a table to field trace can be establish and all carcasses are inspected by a government vet b4 the go for human consumption, or dog meat. yet again your not in the industry so i wouldn't expect you to actually know the facts only the emotional stuff. 13. go talk to any wheat. lucerne, oat, or any veggie farmer and they will give you the honest truth and you have to actually leave the city to see where the kangaroos are doing the damage, go to any country town sit at the bar at the local pub and ask the old fellas or any locals from the area and you'll be told what you need to be told. 14. the macro-pod harvesting license is issued by the EPA (environmental protection agency) just to add insult to injury. check out www.rooshooter.com.au for a little heads up 15. its not a pittance of a wage mate since the chiller box re-opened on the 15/1/2010 till this morning 29/3/2010 i placed my 5204th tag on the last roo i shot last night. and that's just for this year so far..... at an average weight of 28kg's going off my records that's right every roo has to be recorded when, where, weight etc..... so far this year that's a grand total of $98876 b4 taxes.... so if i actually shot for the entire year i will have shot 20816 roos for the year there lucky i take 3 months off over winter aren't they.... and that's just me 1 of over 1500 registered roo shooters in Queensland alone. And yet most of us full timers shoot an average of 20,000 roo's a year and somehow we keep doing this year in and year out and the numbers aren't dropping there's still in excess of 60 million roo's in Australia according to last years study done by the EPA so really we need more roo shooter's. well you all have a good day I'm going to bed got a long night ahead of me making my pittance of a wage. oh and tiger quoll maybe some time you should come out roo shooting with me so you can see what its all about. sorry but i can't let you shoot any cause well that would be poaching but you'll still see them in plague proportion and actually know how it really is and see first hand the damage they do. well y'all have fun working the jobs that you hate while i sleep the day away after a profitable night 1100 buck for one night at work who woulda guessed you could make this kinda money and actually enjoy your job.

Tigerquoll

Mon, 2010-03-29 10:56

Tim, What you have highlighted is the dilemma of the immature society that like a typical human two year old selfishly believes that it is the centre of the world and has an unlimited right to have what it wants. The problem of the two year old is one for the parents, to reshape immature thinking and behaviour so it learns to be part of society rather than falsely thinking it is the centre of society. Immature societies have a similar problem. Twentieth century societies emerged out of 19th century societies that were spoilt by their governments. Exploitative, selfish habits are cross generational. Emerging third world societies are now aspiring to the excesses of their 'first world' older siblings. What to do with Societal Two Year Olds in the 21st Century? Tiger Quoll Snowy River 3885 Australia

Vivienne (not verified)

Mon, 2010-03-29 10:22

It is refreshing to hear from an economist, secretary of the Treasury Dr Ken Henry, with the gift of environmental literacy. He condemns the ''massive environmental destruction'' as a consequence of fishing, hunting, forestry and farming practices. This year is the UN's Year of Biodiversity, but for our one-issue economically-based Governments, it has gone under the radar. Australia is the most megadiverse developed country and supports almost 10 per cent of the biological diversity on earth. According to Urban Ecology Australia, an ecosystem with high biodiversity may have a greater chance of adapting to environmental change. In other words, the more species comprising an ecosystem, the more stable the ecosystem is likely to be. According to Professor Richard Kingsford of the University of NSW, "Earth is experiencing its sixth great extinction event and the new report reveals that this threat is advancing on six major fronts." Indigenous people lived here for thousands of years with a spiritual connection with their environment, and when the First Fleet arrived it was still in pristine condition. However, agriculture has modified or destroyed about 50 percent of woodland and forest ecosystems, and about 70 percent of remaining forests are ecologically degraded from logging. If even threatened species such as these grey-headed Flying Foxes can be "culled" along with so-called "common species" such as some kangaroos, then it doesn't say much for the strength our EPBC Act. The loss of species such as the Tasmanian tiger, the tiger quoll or the hairy-nosed wombat may seem inconsequential to our environmentally illiterate leaders in Canberra, but ignoring the loss of any one of these unique species is not only a loss of their intrinsic value, but at our own peril too.

Tigerquoll

Mon, 2010-03-29 10:11

Re: Vivienne, 'Government policies are contrary to the ideals of Earth Hour' Earth Hour is simply one strategy to remind people and business and government of the problems of the unsustainable level of damaging resource and energy usage and the polluting emissions being caused. Yes, curbing population is an essential part of the solution to reducing greenhouse gas emissions, because more people cause more demand for energy and resources. The per capita usage test is just as valid a focus as the gross usage. Consumerism is the rate of usage. Australia is one of the highest CO2 emissions per capita in the world. Queensland housing development in its south east sprawl is characterised by high use of air conditioners and cars. Meanwhile, the NSW Labor Government while supporting turning off the lights on Sydney Harbour Bridge for Earth Hour, same day (Saturday 27th March 2010) announced 'Sydney’s Biggest Residential Development Gets Underway' with major civil works beginning at Oran Park in Sydney's outer south-west. "The Precinct will include around 7,500 homes, a seniors living village and aged care facility for up to 400 residents, and a 30-hectare Town Centre." But no public transport, no train line, just more roads. So more airconditioners and more cars. And NSW Premier Keneally believes "Oran Park Town is an excellent example of...sustainable development." This is the consequence of Rudd's Big Australia fettish. Progressing from Earth Hour and from the WWF Plan to reduce emissions, individuals should start with finding ways to address just three items in the WWF Plan, namely: 1. Reduce carbon pollution by at least 25% - sell the air conditioner, lawn mower and second car 2. Preserve and grow trees to absorb carbon pollution and protect habitat - plant six trees on your property 3. Don't vote for governments that support new coal-fired power stations i.e don't vote Liberal and Labor If each household in Australia did just these three things in 2010, the targets would be reached for those individuals. Yes, Vivienne, a systemic new direction and ethos is needed. Time to watch Tasmania for leadership, with the Greens now holding the balance of power. =========== Re: Tim, 'Earth Hour-- a noble, or a counter-productive cause?' Yes, economic growth needs to be questioned as a goal. What is the alternative? Species extinction is just as unacceptable as genocide and the holocaust Changing personal consumerism is a start - reducing consumtion of red meat, car usage, waste disposal, water and energy usages, limiting families to two children. Tiger Quoll Snowy River 3885 Australia

Tigerquoll

Mon, 2010-03-29 09:30

So Chris Palmer from Dalby has joined the frame. Pity he can't answer any of the questions or issues in this article and subsequent comments, like: 1. Killing kangaroos for commercial meat and destroying their remnant habitat is just a hangover from illegal colonist exploitation of Australia. Killing wildlife is poaching. 2. Killing native wildlife is wrong. Eating it only encourages supply of kangaroo meat, and perpetuate the wrong. 3. Most kangaroo meat is sold as pet food, "not for human consumption". The pets (mainly cats and dogs) are introduced animals. Not only are colonists killing wildlife, they feed it to their pets. 4. If as roo poachers claim, that it is ok to eat Kangaroo, what about wombat, Koala and Platypus and dog? 5. "People are capable of eating anything that is available." So why is cat and dog not included? They are introduced animals. Thousadns remain unwanted in RSPAC depots and lethal injection is a humane way of killing them. The Koreans eat dog so why not Austalians? 6. Rood poaching ignores the ecological cost. If the roos shooters had to pay per carcass for the loss of the wildlife, their commercial exploitation would not be profitable. I can't see that with roo meat selling for under $4 a kilo how it is profitable anyway. Shooting wildlife for pet meat for pittance? Get a real job! Check out a leading brand of roo pet meat at Coles: Paws Fresh Pet Foods PO Box 10562, Southport BC Qld 4215 http://www.pawsfresh.com.au/pet-food/default.asp 7. If PH had an argument with any merit, PH would supply referenced facts, rather than resort to argument ad hominem (shooting the messenger 'do gooder' while avoiding the 'do gooders' argument). How lame! 8. So long as cowboy poachers in utes hoon around the scrub shooting wildlife for a pittance and seek to legitimise it by calling it a 'kangaroo industry', there ought to be calls to set up a Poacher Culling Industry. 9. So where are kangaroos "out of control"? Why were theyr not out of control pre-white fella? 10. What is the minimum definition of a "professional shooter"? Is it anyone licenced to shoot holding a long arm licence? In NSW, this can mean a supervised 12 year old. How are recreational shooters and farmers holding a shooters licence distinguished from professional marksman with a marksman rating? I don't think they are. Australian shooting associations are all amateur and voluntary and there is no official 'professional shooters licence' as much as many roo shooters would comfort from such legitimacy. 11. A kangaroo's head at 300 metres at dawn or dusk when kangaroos are grazing and so typically shot by roo shooters. This marksman standard ought to be the Australian professional standard. But I reckon we'd find bugger all shooters competent to that accuracy. Hence, despite this being a typical scenario this is why the lack of independent monitoring and systemic cover up of body shots. 12. Why is there no independent government watchdog overseeing roo shooters in outback QLD, NSW, SA, WA? Is it because state governments couldn't give a toss? 13. "Kangaroos are destroying...crops" Where? 13. "Kangaroos are taking valuable feed away from cattle" Where? Answer those. Tiger Quoll Snowy River 3885 Australia

quark

Mon, 2010-03-29 08:54

I wonder why the Swedes as a nation are able to see that they will destroy their quality of life, standard of living and environment if they increase population , yet Australians either can't see it or can't get their voices heard where it matters. There must be an answer to this. It must lie with the level of involvement of the people in government decisions and in the extent to which the people of Sweden have a say in their destiny as a nation compared with Australians and Canadians

chris palmer (not verified)

Sun, 2010-03-28 23:50

ok its easy to shoot a roo with a joey and not even know it has one due to long grass, dips in the land, etc. the reason most roo shooters wont talk about it is because of the reaction you get from people. i feel no feeling of remorse or anything for a joey when i shoot the doe, i just do what i have to do i kill it and be done with it. you have to be cruel to be kind they wont survive with out there mother, pinky's that is, if they have a joey at foot ya just let em go. its easy to tell if the joey will live or die if you dont kill it. so you make the choice weather to or not. it's an easy choice just like weather or not to get a large macca's meal or a small. the part about the pigging bit i've never used a rifle yet whilst pig hunting to big of a risk of the pig moving and a dog getting shot, i hunt pigs old school 8 inch bowie knife, 2 finder/bailers, 3 holders and a lugger, the lugger stays with me at all time when we catch up to the rest of the pack the others let go and the lugger grabs the pig, quick stab to the heart and the lugger does his job holding the pig while it bleeds out. and yes all of my dogs are protected with more than just a huge collar they have full breast neck and rib plates custom made to eliminate any chance of a dog getting injuried. around dalby and most parts of queensland kangaroos are in plague proportions and are a major pest to cattle farmers and crop farmers, they way i see it i'm doing them a favour making good coin off roos and pigs that cost decent honest farmers money threw lose of crops/ feed and constant fence problems. i have hunted everything in australia that you can legally hunt, by nearly every means and never have i been able to shoot a dog or dingo from a helicopter, dogs and dingos head straight for the trees rock out crops or cover of any kind the second they feel in danger, a roo on the other hand you can shoot them by any means, during the day if your good enough you can nearly walk right up and hit em in the head with a hammer, a dog has problem solving skill like no other animal, people love to hunt deer for the thrilll of stalking them been there done that and the only animal that actually is a challenge to hunt is a dingo or feral dog, you have to out smart them in every way. and its a challenge. it is rare but i have seen it a dingo get drowned by a roo in a dam but only to see the roo drowned seconds later because of there in ability to swim so in all honesty the roo even in this case still has no problem solving skill it would have been better off fighting in the open and possibly living to tell the tale. kangaroos will never evolve they will always be mindless grass stripping pests.

Scott

Sun, 2010-03-28 13:41

Just about every large animal (including humans) have been successfully hunted or domesticated throughout history, I don't believe you can determine how intelligent an animal is simply by how easy it is to hunt. For example, If a wolf is being chased by a hunter in a helicopter why doesn't it run into the relative safety of a group of trees instead of staying out in the open? Why do kangaroos lift their heads and look into the spotlight when you whistle? The obvious answer is that these animals have evolved in the absence of these hunting methods. If a kangaroo finds itself looking straight into the spotlight of a shooter its safe to assume it is going to die and not learn from the experience. How then does the kangaroo learn to avoid this situation? I can't see how you draw a comparison between this and the reactions of your dogs when they are used to the noise and carnage associated with kangaroo/pig shooting. Can you call a dog mindless when it chases a kangaroo into a dam only to be drowned when the kangaroo turns around and pushes its head underwater? It's easier to hunt in packs, that's what dogs have learnt. It's even easier to hunt when every individual wears a huge leather collar to minimise the risk of neck injuries and when one of these pack members is armed with a rifle you've got a lethal combination indeed. It does not surprise me at all that you don't eat dog meat. Like Barry Cohen's recent article criticising the current campaign to ban kangaroo products into the EU you have not mentioned the fate of joeys in the kangaroo industry. It's an issue that is routinely avoided by anyone that is involved in or supports the kangaroo industry. Claims that kangaroos are pests only adds insult to injury. I personally do not have any problems with professional kangaroo shooters, they are simply earning a living that is open to them due to Australian laws currently in place. If it was legal to shoot koalas again for the fur trade there would be plenty of takers no doubt.

tim

Sun, 2010-03-28 12:55

Reducing personal consumption would make a trivial impact on what is decisive:TOTAL consumption. According to Derrick Jensen "green living" would reduce America's consumption by just 22 percent. But with the growth economy still in place, population and economic growth would quickly pick up that slack. We cannot avoid a train wreck. We are due for a collapse of unimaginable proportions. NOTHING will stop that. Get real. There will be no soft landings, no world government, no significant changes in government policies or political direction in enough time to prevent catastrophe. So the question is, when do you want that collapse to occur--sooner, or later? The longer this growth-economy lives, the more of our life-support system will be destroyed, making the prospects of the rump core of humanity that emerges from the rubble even slimmer. As each day passes, at least 100 species dies. Want to kill them all off? Then help to keep the system going. Practice your green feel-good boy scout habits now. Eat vegan. Take a bicycle, separate your garbage, take fewer showers. And conserve energy so that the system has more slack to work with and can grow even more. Alternatively, you can practice brown living to STRESS the system for more immediate collapse. Not something I want to personally experience, but in my judgment, that would be the ethical course. Today I did two things. I turned every damn light on in the house that I could. Then I photocopied ten OPT leaflets that demonstrated that condoms were the most cost effective energy-saver on record, and posted them in the local village. I logged a lifetime of "Earth Hours" by not siring any children. There is NOTHING, repeat NOTHING that I could do with CFL lights, or hybrid cars or solar panels which could offset the ecological damage that David Suzuki, who lives but 6 miles down the road from me, has inflicted upon the world with his five children. And the local Green Party candidate, BTW, has two far. Keep in mind, there are 30,000 children in Canada who languish in orphanages or foster homes vainly awaiting placement with permanent families. But these hypocritical green robotic replicators simply must have kids with the same pair of eyes or ears as they have---unless of course they are Haitian, then brownie points can be made showcasing them around the community. Additionally, every one of them I can think of takes an annual trip to Mexico, Bali or other exotic vacation, not by canoe, kayak or sailing ship, but by jetplane. If I stopped driving my car for one whole year, that sacrifice would be wiped out by one flight from Vancouver to Caracas by just one of these self-righteous myopics. We have been around the block with this discussion before. http://candobetter.org/node/1755 No minds will be changed. Do your thing. Turn off your lights, wear sack cloth, walk barefoot on glass, whip your back---whatever turns your crank. By all means, feel good about "doing your part". But while you're at it, get a vascetomy will you?

quark

Sun, 2010-03-28 10:47

The underlying message of Earth hour seems to be that individuals with resolve can collectively make a difference and that it is up to "us". I think this is unrealistic. The demands of our lives, if we function within the moving components of a large modern city will overwhelm the desires of most of us to tread more lightly on the environment. Outside of Earth Hour for example , a V.C.E. student with all the deadlines this entails can only with great difficulty decide to halve the time s/he uses electricity. Her parents who need to get to work across the city dealing with limited public transport are forced into their cars. Busy two income families are time poor and are, if not actually forced, they are funneled into supermarkets to buy food produced in environmentally unfriendly ways and transported long distances. I see these people - that is most of us- as trapped unless they do the near impossible, opt out of contemporary life and make it their primary purpose to live independently of it. Of course our society could function quite differently and we could have lower carbon emissions. However, presently,as populations in the major cities of Australia expand, our Greenhouse Gas emissions increase in proportion. Rapid population growth pushes us in the wrong direction whilst compounding the issue, insane types of urban and suburban development take us further and further away from a sustainable ideal with over sized ill adapted and designed houses on minimal treeless blocks. There seems little opportunity in the current scheme for individuals to make much difference. A systemic new direction and ethos is needed.

Vivienne (not verified)

Sun, 2010-03-28 08:38

The Australian Conservation Foundation would bid to make population recognised as a key threat under the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999 (the EPBC Act) and has called for Australia’s growth to be stabilised by mid Century. According to Urban Taskforce's Arron Gadeil, the growth of a human society should never be equated with the problems caused by feral cats, cane toads and gamba grass. According to their website: Urban Taskforce has been established to represent the views of the people engaged in the development and planning of the urban environment . Growing cities and regions provide the engine room for the economy - creating jobs and investment benefiting everyone. We need to balance the economic benefits with initiatives that protect our environment and quality of life. The Urban Taskforce is a non-profit organisation representing Australia's most prominent property developers and equity financiers. Clearly their interests are in growth! The ideals of protecting the environment and quality of life are to be dubiously "balanced" with the economic benefits of limitless growth for the benefit of developers and financiers. No matter the economic, social and intrinsic value of the human species, over-population will make us into a destructive pest species. We are all part of Nature and must fit into our finite ecological systems. When demand outstretches supply, then we end up being a destructive force on the planet. Our ageing population is the result of the post war baby boom and our massive immigration program in the following decades. Continuing to add more people, no matter how skilled, will not keep our population young. Once our environment is compromised, all the skills and economics won't compensate for the downturn in living standards, the extinction of wildlife, or the loss of viable ecological systems that provide our livelihoods. Why wait until mid century to stabilise population growth when the damage will already be maximised and maybe gone too far to prevent further damage? Surely prevention is better than cure?

chris palmer (not verified)

Sun, 2010-03-28 06:56

I've eaten pork, lamb, beef, chicken, duck, roo, camel, buffalo, crocodile, and snake but i will never eat a dog, as i have 6 of my own and they have a personality, are smart, cunning and resourceful and to top it off are my best mates, they are pig dogs and we are a pack, kangaroos are mindless, over populated pests that need to be controlled, or there would be no veggies or grain for the vegans and vegetarians. if you don't believe me that a kangaroo is mindless drive down a fence line that's made out of pig mesh, the kangaroo will jump in to in for kilometers I've seen it first hand by fellas at the mine i used to work at, a dog on the other hand you'll never even know its there, with a kangaroo the best trick for shooting them at night is to whistle they pick there heads up and look straight at you making life so much easier, and dog/dingo will never do this you whistle it will drop its head and turn away from you. i hate cats i think they should be wiped off the face of the earth but you wont see me eating the bloody things and if that's the way people go then i will make the choice not to eat them, i wont get on the net a whinge about something i have no idea about just because in my own little world its wrong. and if i was to have my say I'd get the facts together so that when in this case someone that lives and breaths roo shooting and pigging comes along and tells me the facts i don't feel like a dick. even if people start eating dogs in Australia which i highly doubt it i will be discussed in them, but i will just make the choice not to eat it not buy any products from it i wont be sitting here whinging about it people can make there own minds up and this will be my last post cause I'm sick of people that know nothing of what they ;like to whinge about.

chris palmer (not verified)

Sun, 2010-03-28 06:31

tiger quoll and menkit prince you still arent looking at any facts or actually looking into anything if a roo is shot 3 inches below the head you cant sell it the chiller boxes wont even take it for dog food, and if the animal is shot anywhere else in the body anywhere other than the head and you take it to a chiller box within a month you can expect a letter in the mail revoking your roo shooting accreditation and an accuracy test has to be passed and they do an inquire in to why the animal was shot any where but in the head, the only time that a roo can be shot else where than in the head by law is to destroy an injured animal but the meat can not be sold. no one on this site that's fighting against roo shooting has a clue as to what there talking bout get your facts together than maybe, MAYBE you will have a decent argument, and the animals are inspected if there is any major bruising on the animals an inquiry is done as to why the animal was bruised

Vivienne (not verified)

Sat, 2010-03-27 09:48

There is a debate in the environment movement about whether or not curbing population is an essential part of the solution to reducing greenhouse gas emissions. November 12 last year the Japanese government had announced that their greenhouse gas emissions hit a record high in the year ending March 2008, despite their declining population. From 1990 to 2004, the Cuban population grew by about 1 million or 8.5%. For the same period, total carbon dioxide emissions fell from 32 million tones to 25.8 million tones; a 19.4%. This slim evidence is supposed to "delink" population growth from greenhouse gas emissions! Japan has a technological and manufacturing based economy. Cuba's growing population have a simple lifestyle plus part of the reduction is the direct consequence of burning less fossil oils to produce energy, a goal achieved due to the replacement of almost 15 million incandescent bulbs for energy-saving lamps, and of old electrical appliances for more efficient ones. Another part of the reduction refers to the proper handling and storage of the ozone affecting chlorofluorocarbons extracted from the close to 3 million air conditioners and refrigerators replaced. Even though individual numbers of people don't exactly positively correlate with greenhouse gas emission levels in each country, the evidence can't be dismissed that overall the impacts of swelling human numbers increases greenhouse emissions. While Earth Hours' cause is a noble one, while our Governments are addicted to growth and mass markets and consumerism, the small amount individuals can do is being further diminished by outside commercial forces.

quark

Sat, 2010-03-27 08:05

I heard that numbers of tiny insectivorous bat populations are in decline as well especially in Victoria. Their wonderful service to humanity- they eat mosquitoes. Reason for decline in numbers- removal, degradation and fragmentation of habitat. Dr. Lindy Lumsden, local expert was interviewed about this recently on ABC TV.

chris palmer (not verified)

Sat, 2010-03-27 04:18

hi tiger quoll it is a real job mate i bet your not making 120 thousand a years and actually enjoying your job i only work 3 to 4 nights a week. none of you have a clue about the roo shooting industry and to menkit prince humans are omnivores not herbivores again you have not got your facts straight. and yes mate menkit prince's article is most definately laughable lmao. and there are 2 differant types of chiller boxes 1 is for human comsuption and the other is for pet food and we dont make a pettiance of a living off it either. well said "sambar hunter" i agree totally with you on this one. tiger quoll, this is my input as an active acredited roo shooter none of you except sambar hunter, ill billy and tassie pete actually have a clue on what is happening, as sambar hunter suggested go spend some time in the bush around dalby qld where i live and shoot on a regular basis, you cant drive to kogan or chinchilla at night with out hitting or almost hitting a kangaroo there every where. people need to go out and look for them selves and stop listening to what other people say and post on these site seeing is believeing, and until i see wat you people keep saying i wont believe it, i see it everynight i go out shooitng there are more and more roos every year i know how they are treated and none of them are treat the way you discribe i'm not say there aren't some hunters that go out and shoot everything that moves and enjoy watching the animals suffer but in my experience they arent the ones doing it for a living there the city foke that think there all that because they go shooting. no country shooter the ones doing it for a living will treat the animals like the way you have discribed. the only part that is atleast a miniscule true is the part about pouch young as in section 5 of the humane shooting of kangaroos and wallabies for commerical purposes..... i will quote to you all what it says and post a link to. section 5.1 the following conditions apply (i) where euthanasia is carried out using a blow to the head, the blow must be delivered with sufficient force to crush the skull and destroy the brain. the blow should be delivered with a suitably hard and heavy blunt instrument. the shooter must confirm that there has been lethal damage to the brain and that the animal is dead. the Code of Conduct is a 245k PDF document to be found here. most roo shooter live by this as we do not enjoy watching animals suffer and it is our job and like any job you have t follow the rules or suffer the consequences sorry about the long post but i'm just sick of seeing miss leading post like this on the net about my profession. See also A roo shooter's response to Menkit Prince

chris palmer (not verified)

Sat, 2010-03-27 03:26

Subject was: oi menkit prince get your facts straight. - JS dear menkit prince, i am an a-credited roo shooter and mate i don't know where you got your info from. but let me tell you this, in that you tube video the reason the roos are still moving is because of there nerves. the kangaroos are not hung from the side of the ute all the time, only to bleed out in the paddock, then they are hung from the rack over the tray. the vehicle is never moving and if it is they arent in it for the money or the humane killing of the roos, and yes i do shoot the roos in the face, but mate a .223 Remington with a 55grain projectile leave's practically nothing left of a roos head, the hygiene standards on our vehicles are threw the roof, most of our vehicles are cleaner than any kitchen, fridge/freezer, or restaurant. you need to learn to get the facts before running your mouth my bet is that your a city fellas that's never even seen a roo in his life or ever even been roo shooting. we cop this shit all the time and its only because of your ignorance that it keeps happening. and as for the bit about steve irwin every culture threw out history has eaten the animals of there country, i cant exactly see the aboriginals back in the day going "oh we cant eat that its australian we better ask the kiwis for some sheep", come on mate if ya gunna have a whinge about something make sure its something that you actually know a bit about, yeah you may have used some fancy word on the different types of bacteria that you can get in any meat not just roos . Editorial comment: Personal attack removed. Please just stick to arguing your case in future, - JS. See also A roo shooter's response to Tigerquoll

Tigerquoll

Fri, 2010-03-26 10:27

I am yet to meet a 'purist greenie'. Should a 'purist greenie' be anyone favouring protection of rare old growth native forests and that they be incorporated federally into national parks, then I presume there will be hundreds of thousands of ordinary people across Australia (including myself) who would consider a 'purist' label bullshit. David's pigeon holing of people's views is simplistic and insular. That people can be either 'greenies' and 'brownies' is childish media indulgence and even Orwellian. Simplistic labelling only serves to divide otherwise like minded people who may be receptive to agree if only asked. Ever considered asking about the people's views that you prejudge? As they say, 'never let the truth get in the way of a good argument.' Many with conservation leanings, or whom are construed 'anti-destructive', tend to favour protecting old growth forests and reducing pollution and reducing population, but if this makes them both 'greenies' and 'brownies' does such simplistic labelling warrant them being 'olive'? Many can walk and chew gum at the same time. Yes, clearly Australia's population is too high. This is fact when demands exceeds supply, congestion is chronic, costs of living have risen, environmental degradation is perpetuated to accommodate the hoards and sprawl persists. Perpetuating immigration when resources and infrastructure can't already cope with the existing numbers is grossly reckless and irresponsible - economically, socially and environmentally. Forced mass immigration on a local population is an undeclared invasion. If as you claim the ACF is calling for immigration to end by mid-century, they are a bit slow. Can you elaborate on this last point as it seems to be the thrust of your argument? What is ACF policy on immigration? I disagree with dividing the conservation movement, but criticism is valid of a lead conservation group like ACF if it is adopting a laisse faire approach to environmentalism. Tiger Quoll Snowy River 3885 Australia

Sheila Newman

Thu, 2010-03-25 16:47

Mary Drost writes, "Thank you enormously to all of you who came to the rally today! It went very well. Estimations are that there were about 1,000 people there. The police had big trouble packing us all along the lower steps and footpaths and keeping us off the road." The mainstream media were all there so the event will almost certainly be covered by them over the next day or so. Mary Drost suggests that it is time to start emailing MPs and demanding Madden rescind his approval of the development at the Windsor. Resolutions were adopted and handed in to Premier Brumby, although no-one came out of his office to get them. A video of the event will soon be up at MarvellousMelbourne.org 1000 is a LOT for Melbourne!

David Zero (not verified)

Thu, 2010-03-25 16:38

My first job out of Uni in 1974 was as a project officer with the ACF when their office was in East Melbourne. Even then, the ACF was split into the purist Greenies who cared about forests and national parks. And the Brownies (like me) who cared about pollution, use of non-renewable resources and population growth. Through the following 40 years, the purist Greenies have always been in the ascendancy at the ACF -- notable characters being Geoff Mosely, Peter Garret and Phillip Toyne. I've had nervous breakdowns and prison for most of this century.So now I see the ACF from a different angle. After living in a tent and a car for a few years, I now live in a boarding house in South Melbourne with 17 other blokes. All of us are broken in some ways, alcohol, drugs, prison, marriage and family break-ups. None of us have full-time employment. Only two of us struggle to find casual jobs. Our household is at or near the bottom of the ladder. All of us are on the Housing Commission waiting lists, some blokes for five or six years. But none of us move. There are lots of new people getting Housing Commission flats ($60pw for 3-ded walkupss) But It's always refugees who get the vacancies. And yes, lots of these new faces we see in South Melbourne streets are covered with head scarves. So, viewing from my boarding house, I can't understand the reasoning of the ACF (and SPA etc) who use twee political correctness to argue that black is black, but in some circumstances black is white. Either Australia cannot suffer anymore net immigration. Full stop. OR hang-on, we can suffer more net immigration just as long as it's refugees. Why? Because refugees won't take jobs from us?. Because refugees won't engage in chain migration like all the other ethnic tribes before them? Because refugees will never live in our leafy middle-class streets? Because refugees are a boom industry for middle-class social workers? Fair go. Who will have the spine to speak what all old environmentalists know in their hearts? Planet Earth is grossly overcrowded. Australia's population must decrease to below 10-million. The globe's population must decrease to under one-billion. By calling for immigration to end by mid-century the ACF are as reactionary as Latrobe Valley power station owners. Lord make me pure, but not for another 40 years.

Anonymous (not verified)

Thu, 2010-03-25 14:47

Title was: possums - JS Ah yes, the cute wee possum - a "dearly beloved" native of Australia - but that is devastating to New Zealand flora and fauna, a vector for TB and a major, destructive pest. It is not completely appropriate to use emotive language to condemn the use of possum fur on the basis that it is an Australian native, particularly when considering its effect on New Zealand natives. Nor is it reasonable to condemn the fur harvesting as unlikely to eliminate this pest but at the same time criticise the use of 1080. If someone can come up with a better and benign control mechanism that would eliminate possums, I am certain that the Department of Conservation (that has spent millions trying to find one) would be ecstatic. Alternatively, perhaps all those who defend possum "rights" would be happy to expatriate the 70 million or so specimens back to their homeland? Editorial comment: In fact, the objections you have raised have already been addressed in another forum, which I will try to locate. - JS

Scott

Thu, 2010-03-25 13:00

Very young opossums can hang by their tail briefly but adults cannot do it at all, they are just too heavy. Of course any opossum being held by its tail is going to be in distress whether it can support its weight or not. Anyone that cannot appreciate this is either ignorant, stupid, sadistic or all of the above.

DB (not verified)

Thu, 2010-03-25 09:48

Should she walk the Plank ? On reading a little of Anna Bligh, it came as no surprise that she was unaware that her lineage is that of Captain Bligh of Mutiny on The Bounty (he apparently tried to sell parts of the ships running gear to meet budget shortcomings brought about by frivolous purchases and gifts to ‘dignitaries’ of the various islands visited). Ms Bligh (although married to a senior bureaucratic) maintains her maiden name; apparently she and her husband come from larger families; however, for whatever reasons, they only had two sons. Why only two children one might ask; and the answer could be complex, but financial considerations then, the size of the home and career choices must have had sway. As anybody with children knows, kids cost money and take considerable time and participation; but on the logistical considerations, if you have a larger family, you need more rooms, more toilets, more food, more educations costs and so on; one might call it a ‘carrying capacity’ . Now we know that apart from the Peter Costello ‘have three kids, one for Mum, one for Dad and one for Australia’ plus cash incentives for having kids, the last two years baby boom is an aberration; people carefully considered when they would have kids and how many. The reasoning is simple, one must budget before making such decisions; more kids equals more costs and as I said before, more rooms, toilets, showers, medical, school, sports, etc etc. the big problem is that we have a couple – Ms Bligh and her husband – who made a decision to restrict the number of kids based on many of the things I alluded to, yet now make decisions of unbridled growth in an environment that doesn’t have the carrying capacity. Earning a combined household in excess of $300,000 per annum plus ‘benefits’, these two people are unable to comprehend the budgetary caps of resources of their home (they could adopt some kids I guess); they have their eye fixed on the acquisition of assets and believe that these enhance the quality of life; they chose to encroach on people’s quality of life (the Mary River) to appease a greater ‘voting block’. I saw an ad for one of the travel shows spruiking ‘the last natural place on earth’ and its not in Australia. Australia was a beacon of natural wonder, but the reason tourism is down in number is not because of the quality of the accommodation, we have lost the wonder and natural beauty, its all been massaged by dozer and developer, with the assistance of a politician looking us square in the eye and uttering the mantra ‘ jobs, jobs, jobs’; but those jobs are gone. Anna Bligh was on the news making a big deal about selling off more of our future children’s resources to have the money now to keep the façade going. It doesn’t matter what your political persuasion, the party you chose should not and does not have the right to sell off ‘the farm’, Queensland belongs to Queenslander born and bred, not the Johnny come lately’s with glib promises of beads and blankets and rip up our landscape, pollute our air and waterways and leave desolation behind. Yes to the plank …

Protect our mar... (not verified)

Thu, 2010-03-25 09:32

Peter Garrett is actually considering a policy FOR the environment, but what happens? There are those with commercial interests who don't want it! Mr Garrett yesterday announced he would "consider" more than 2.4 million square kilometres of ocean, spanning most of Australia's east coast, for marine protection zones. It would spread from Torres Strait to southern NSW. Following consultation with recreational and commercial fishers, conservation groups, scientists and traditional owners, the government will release a draft marine plan early next year. Once our population grows, so do commercial interests and the demands for jobs and economic benefits. Our natural assets will be more under threat as resources for industries. "Sustainability" can easily just be pushed aside as immediate demands become more prolific, and loggers, energy markets, the fishing industry, land clearing will be the threats that inundate our government Ministers.

Agent Provocateur

Thu, 2010-03-25 06:18

You might be glad to know that I still have a few ideals left. I believe that, apart from actually needing a new profession - as a nurse- psychiatry is driving me mad - I would like to learn as much as I can about real estate because a) knowledge is power b) and used wisely, power can be - well, powerful. I hope that, with an inside running and a licence to kill (can't help myself - it's the Agent in me) - I can help others' get a better deal and give them good advise. I believe that, if I work for a franchise and learn all I can, that I can 'on-sell' that knowledge ( I do have to make a living, you know) - to the general public. Whether this newly acquired knowledge is dispensed through some form of media such as a column in a magazine or newspaper or through holding seminars, I believe I could help the buying public to learn to become savvy in regard to their properties and investments. I will learn all the lurks & perks - and be happy to pass the information on. I learnt during my short appointment with that real estate Principal, for instance, that banks will only lend around 50% of the price of Serviced Apartment type- investments... Stay tuned!

Agent Provocateur

Thu, 2010-03-25 05:42

* Practical politics consists in ignoring facts.-Henry Brooks Adams *A politician is a fellow who will lay down your life - for his country.-Texas Guinan * A politician is a person who thinks twice before he says nothing.- Joe Moore * The world of politics is always twenty years behind the world of thought.- John Jay Chapman And finally... In politics as on a sickbed men toss from side to side in hope of lying more comfortably.-Goethe

Agent Provocateur

Thu, 2010-03-25 03:43

Recently, I made enquiries about obtaining an Agents Representative Licence - in order to be employed by a real estate agent. I had a firm in mind and the Principal of this franchise was prepared to give me his valuable time, presumably in order to see if I was recruitment material or not. We arranged to meet at his Melbourne City office (very plush) - and I learnt a few things while I was there. * The bottom has dropped out of the first home buyers market because the first home owners boost has been removed. Not news, but I wondered then - and I wonder now, why first home buyers were so short sighted in regard to this phony bonus. The bonus hardly - if at all, covered the Stamp Duty and fluctuating interest rates scare me - but didn't deter the thousands of people signing up for new loans. ... So, a lot more people are being forced back into or remain in - the rental market. The landlords and real estate agents don't really mind, either way: its now an investers market again - and Property Managers are earning upto $80,000 a year to manage the burgeoning rental stock. ... Once upon a time banks wouldn't allow borrowers to extend themselves - in repayments, at any rate - for more than 25% of their income. What's the % of a borrower's income now, to service a loan, does anyone know? Back to the story: the Principal of this real estate franchise had two offices, one in the suburbs and one in the city. He asked me if I had a preference for one area or another. I umned and ahh'd; I had thought that I would be selling houses to home-owners and thereby derive a sublimated nesting - by - proxy - pleasure from seeing everyone nicely settled. The city though, had other temptations; much higher -priced dwellings for investers with quite rapid turnover, generating much better commission! The Devil take me! I was - with suave and effective flattery - being persuaded that I would do well in the city arena. To summarise: The market has changed, with no drop-off, without taking a breath - the Boom Town Rats - with apologies to the musicians - are marching on - ever hungry for new listings and sales. By the way, agents at this real estate franchise get 2.5% for listings - i.e. home owners ready to sell - and a further 2.5% for the sale. On a $500,000 sale this Agency receives 2.5% of the sale price - thats $12,500; the listing/selling agent gets 2.5% + 2.5% of the initial $12,500 which first' goes to the Agency. Now - you should know that there is no legal requirement to use an agent - you could sell your place by yourself - with the aid of your solicitor and the relevent conveyancing paperwork and a Section 32. Agents are every where! Constanly sleuthing for new listings and sales, remaining undaunted - certainly not threatened - by any perceived dwelling shortage for population ratio. You're either gonna be a renter or a buyer - either way you are at their mercy! Oh, I suppose you're wondering why I was looking for work in real estate? If they're going to sell my Country from under my feet to ... whoever ... I simply want to be in on the kill. It might be the only equity I will ever again have, in my country of birth: Australia. RIP.

Sheila Newman

Wed, 2010-03-24 21:46

Steven Soloman, who recently published a world history of water in, "Water, the Epic Struggle for Wealth, Power and Civilisation," talks for one hour and 9 minutes on video here.

Solomon talks about the ownership of fresh water throughout history and how it's propriety led to the development of civilizations from Europe to the American Industrial Revolution. He says that renewable water sources are diminished and asserts that water is "the new oil," which has created developmental fissures between states that have it and those that don't. He discussed his book at Politics and Prose Bookstore in Washington, DC.

Peter Bright

Wed, 2010-03-24 20:56

Hello Mary, I'm well aware of the problem you mention and with my anti-barking colleagues interstate and overseas I have been battling for effective reforms for nearly a decade. Unfortunately we have found that sensible reforms occur at much the same speed as dead horses win races. The politicians in a democracy side with the majority, and the majority loves its dogs - or so it claims. If owners truly loved their dogs then these incarcerated animals would not emit the distress cry that we call barking. Things are changing slowly nowadays, not because of the growing number of barking complaints but because dog attacks are up. It seems some people don't like having their arms or jaw ripped off as has happened recently, and others don't like being killed by them. We Peace Warriors have two long-term anti-barking activists in Queensland - one in Maryborough and another in Bundaberg. The very capable Maryborough pensioner will certainly want to assist you and I invite you to email me for her address. In the meantime I suggest that you carefully study everything on my informative websites Quiet Tasmania at www.quietas.net and Quiet Tasmania News at www.pebri.net which have been made available at my own expense in the public interest to help people like you. Queensland's barking laws will be somewhat different from Tasmania's but both will be accessible on the Internet. I'm happy to inform readers that the 'Quiet' movement has begun to take off in the USA, for example at Quiet Arizona http://www.quietarizona.org/ where the originator Ms Catherine Sienko acted on my suggestion of 16th December 2008 to start one herself. Note her helpful link back to Quiet Tasmania! Several more US 'Quiet' websites are being constructed as we speak. More and more citizens, just like you Mary, are becoming increasingly distressed - and yet they are finding that the so-called enforcement bodies won't raise a finger to help. It seems they have found that the barking problem is out of control and so rather than issue infringement notices and use the money ($240 a pop) to secure order, as the legislation requires of them, they simply give up and pretend there's no problem. If there's no problem then they don't have to investigate. It's a blatant cop-out. Barking and dog attacks are related. Peter Bright Hobart Tasmania [email protected]

Been Around (not verified)

Wed, 2010-03-24 20:17

It would be better to increase refugee intake. "Humanitarian" can cover some blurry political areas and create favorites. Family reunion carries the risk of chain-migration, unfortunately and is one of the ALP's old favorites. Family reunion should not be increased, but judiciously maintained, with the principle of 'balance of family' in mind, bearing also in mind that the huge recent immigration means that 'balance of family' may mean a heck of a lot of immigrants. It's good to see the ACF finally come out. It's usually a sign that it doesn't want to be left out of a win. But we are nowhere close to winning this battle. The growth lobby has democracy in its teeth and has no intention of listening to anyone. Just read about Anna Bligh's growth summit.

Mary Gardiner (not verified)

Wed, 2010-03-24 16:39

Peter, I wholeheartedly agree with all you have said. We are plagued with a yapping dog (pomeranian) owned by the tenants of the house next door. We are property owners but it seems these inconsiderate tenants have more rights that we. They (a household of 4 adults and a 3 year old of their daughter) just yell at the dog to SHUT UP. It is corralled underneath the house day in and day out. It is never exercised but is fed and watered. The 3 year old is also untrained in that she screams until she gets what she wants. Therefore our problem is two-fold. We are being audio assaulted from 2 angles. I constantly contact the property manager at the real estate office but very little is done. We live in Queensland so don't know if the laws on noise are the same as your state. Anyone have any suggestions. We are at our wit's end.

Mary Gardiner (not verified)

Wed, 2010-03-24 16:34

Peter, I wholeheartedly agree with all you have said. We are plagued with a yapping dog (pomeranian) owned by the tenants of the house next door. We are property owners but it seems these inconsiderate tenants have more rights that we. They (a household of 4 adults and a 3 year old of their daughter) just yell at the dog to SHUT UP. It is corralled underneath the house day in and day out. It is never exercised but is fed and watered. The 3 year old is also untrained in that she screams until she gets what she wants. Therefore our problem is two-fold. We are being audio assaulted from 2 angles. I constantly contact the property manager at the real estate office but very little is done. We live in Queensland so don't know if the laws on noise are the same as your state. Anyone have any suggestions. We are at our wit's end.

Anonymous (not verified)

Tue, 2010-03-23 23:47

The National Trust, Planning Backlash and Protectors of Public Lands have joined forces to hold a protest rally against a huge tower to be built onto the back of the Winsor Hotel, dwarfing it. 50% will be demolished. The tower will be 26 storeys high THE PARLIAMENTARY PRECINCT DESERVES PROPER PROTECTION Let the Brumby Government know YOU care about what happens Rally at 1pm Thursday, 25th of March, 2010 Parliament House Steps Spring Street, Melbourne. Save our Heritage Stop Inappropriate Developments www.marvellousmelbourne.org http://www.nattrust.com.au/ Please Contact Your Representatives Melbourne City Councillors Robert Doyle (Lord Mayor) Phone: (03) 9658 9658 Fax: (03) 9654 2628 [email protected] Susan Riley (Deputy Lord Mayor) Phone: (03) 9658 9043 Fax: (03) 9658 9039 [email protected] Cr Peter Clarke Phone: (03) 9658 9898 Fax: (03) 9658 9613 Mobile: 0401 100 141 [email protected] Cr Carl Jetter Phone: (03) 9658 9038 Fax: (03) 9658 9613 Mobile: 0411 643 332 [email protected] Cr Jennifer Kanis Phone: (03) 9658 9056 Fax: (03) 9658 9613 [email protected] Cr Kevin Louey Phone: (03) 9658 9170 Fax: (03) 9658 9613 [email protected] Cr Cathy Oke Phone: (03) 9658 9086 Fax: (03) 9658 9613 [email protected] Cr Ken Ong Phone: (03) 9658 9704 Fax: (03) 9658 9613 [email protected] Cr Brian Shanahan Phone: (03) 9658 9051 Fax: (03) 9658 9613 [email protected] Members Of Parliament John Brumby (Premier of Victoria) Phone: (03) 9300 3851 Fax: 9300 3915 [email protected] Justin Madden (State Planning Minister) Ph: 9331 7644 Fax: 9637 8921 [email protected] Bronwyn Pike (Member for Melbourne) Phone: 9328 4637 Fax: 9326 8747 [email protected] Richard Wynne (Local Government) Ph: 9415 8901 Fax: 9415 8918 [email protected] Guy, Matthew (Shadow Planning ) Tel: 9457 5328 Fax: 9455 2968 [email protected] Barber, Greg (Green) Tel: 9348?2622 Fax: 9348?2699 [email protected]

Forest-Creature (not verified)

Tue, 2010-03-23 21:34

Today saw about 40-50 supporters outside the Melb Supreme Court with glider posters and banners to support the EEG legal case. The 7.30 Report and other media there to cover the event. Inside the court VicForests lawyers gAve their side of the argument today from 10.30-4.30 (sorry to those who thought today would be exciting). Tomorrow and possibly part of Thursday, EEG lawyers deliver the forest and fauna side and sum up the arguments. Please come along if you can and show your support. It should be very interesting as Debbie Mortimer SC is dynamite in her arguments and delivery.

Fiona C. (not verified)

Tue, 2010-03-23 14:23

Memorial protest for the unnecessary death of the South Morang kangaroos

Please join us on Sunday 28 March

Kangaroos in Melbourne’s suburbs desperately
need your help!

Going…

Nowhere left to go….

…going…..

The fate of the South Morang kangaroos was sealed despite the community wanting them saved.

The Department of Sustainability and Environment has stated publicly that caring for wildlife was a community responsibility.

Gone

Yet the small landlocked mob of kangaroos was secretly killed by the State Government while a proposed scientific relocation trial submitted by Wildlife Victoria was under review pending approval. The City of Whittlesea and Westfield were very supportive of the relocation process.

The State Government and the DSE are out of touch with wildlife issues and don’t consider what the community wants or expects.

Please voice your protest by email:

Premier John Brumby: john.brumby[AT]parliament.vic.gov.au

and Cc Flora and Fauna Manager Ron Waters Ron.Waters[AT]dse.vic.gov.au

There was noneed for these kangaroos to die.

Please join us for a memorial protest in honour of these kangaroos who became the innocent victims of development and lack of management by the government responsible for their wellbeing.

Sunday 2pm
28th March
Oleander Drive
off McDonalds Rd
South Morang.

Please bring your voice, a tealight candle and a red ribbon.

Vivienne (not verified)

Tue, 2010-03-23 08:03

The status of our wildlife if being muddied and confused due to DSE corruption and contradictory messages being sent out to the public. There was a case of a "hunter" with a high-powered bow and arrow who shot 2 kangaroos dead, and another two - one survived and another died later with an arrow through its head. This was in Mill Park, not too far from the same area. There was a court case recently and he lost his appeal. How contradictory is our State government that they on one hand can just kill "protected" kangaroos to sterilize the area for population growth, but one deranged pseudo-hunter could get one year in jail for doing something similar? All these contradictory messages are being sent out to the public. They must wonder about the real status of our wildlife, and this is hard for low-lives who thus must think that kangaroos are no more than "rodents" - as this person did!

Concerned (not verified)

Mon, 2010-03-22 14:10

Justin Madden is responsible for the Respect Agenda, whatever it is it has something to do with football. However, we the people of Victoria would like some respect, and what we get is Justin Madden who knows nothing of transparency or accountability - surely elements of "respect". The elegant Windsor Hotel will have a generic glass wall behind, 26 storeys high towering above this Grand Old Dame of a former and elegant era. Contrary to the Windsor Hotel, from a time when buildings were individually crafted and designed for beauty and grace as well as function, today's boxes of glass and steel towers are heat traps and environmentally unsustainable. The $200 million project will be the highest in the Parliamentary block, and set a precedent for further sun-blocking and glaring monster buildings in our Marvellous Melbourne, changing forever the dignity of the most elegant and historic part of our capital city. It will be a hideous reminder of our Labor Government, and a symbol of stupidity and development-driven excesses that will be a blight on Melbourne's heritage area of the Parliament House and Her Majesty's Theatre.

nimby

Mon, 2010-03-22 08:50

Former fashion designer Prue Acton, who is campaigning to save a koala colony from logging in a south-east forest, has discovered a bugging device in her phone. The MP3 device was found accidentally when a delivery of water was made to their property. She said it would not stop her from battling Forests NSW over logging in the Mumbulla and Murrah state forests near Bermagui. Such is the power of the logging mafia. Forests N.S.W. intends to log these forests (probably for firewood) irrespective of the findings of a preliminary DECCW report, possibly as early as MONDAY (today). This will almost certainly spell the end for these koalas, which are nearly extinct on the south coast. This is, ironically, the International Year of Biodiversity: Please contact ASAP: The Hon Ian Macdonald, MLC, Minister for Mineral and Forest Resources Governor Macquarie Tower Level 36, 1 Farrer Place, SYDNEY NSW 2000 [email protected] AND Premier Kristina Keneally Member for Heffron, Shop 117, 747 Botany Road, ROSEBERY NSW 2018 [email protected]

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