James,
I think you are right to advise caution and I apologise if I sounded as if I was jumping to unfair conclusions. I hope however that I have redressed any imbalance by soliciting far and wide for discussion of the Occupy Melbourne movement and its treatment by the authorities. I think the result has been overwhelmingly on the side of Occupy Melbourne, which is a movement that I support.
Comments
Lord Mayor has a lot to answer for
I just got another comment via email:
"Hi- I didn’t see any violence but I saw absolute overkill with police numbers. As I was watching from the west side of Swanston I saw one young man with a cut knee and a paramedics helping him – but it looked very minor and Im not sure what caused it. What I saw on TV was awful- people being dragged away and one young man looking dazed as his face had been injured. I think the Lord Mayor has a lot to answer for – he was hell bent on getting them off the city square (public land) (I thought they were at Fed square) and most likely so that it will all look nice for the queen. On TV I saw him walking “portlily” around the balcony at the Town hall as though it was job well done."
City Square Public, Federation Square Private
I got it wrong. I just began listening to this podcast from Joe Toscano on Anarchist World, where he explains the difference:
http://podcast.3cr.org.au/pod/3CRCast-2011-10-19-88156.mp3
Camping is illegal under Council By-laws and this is one of the pretexts to remove the protesters.
High population density on the City Square
If you look at the short video of yesterday's events on the website of The Age, the police officer says that it was time for the protesters to give back the square to the "citizens of Melbourne". Well the citizens of Melbourne could have still used the square all week but there was a much higher population density than we are used to. We are supposed not to worry about and in fact to welcome continued increased density of population in Melbourne so why should anyone be worried about increased population density on the city square?
Should not leap to conclusions
Sheila, Agent Provocateur, I don't think we should jump to making the worst conclusions, when events don't turn out as we expect and hope. Certainly, I was put out when Nick was not able to talk to me when I phoned back as I had arranged, but the explanation Nick gave may well have been the honest truth and I saw no need to conclude otherwise.
I had intended to attend that protest, but didn't, because I had no printed material to give to people I met, so I judged that my time would have been better spent attending to other tasks. In hindsight, I regret not making the effort to attend.
When did 'our' govt. decide to sell Melbourne's public space?
The pretext used by the Police for the removal of protestors and placing their tents, and other possessions including guitars into garbage trucks was that they were occupying private land?!?!
So, when was the decision make by "our" government to sell of what was surely once public space to private vested interests?
If the people don't have their own space in the centre of Melbourne as they once did, where they could meet and discuss issues of concern to them, then when was it taken off them and what elected council/government made that decision and how did it obtain a popular mandate to do so?
A study of the historical records will almost certainly reveal that the sell-off of public spaces in Melbourne from which "Occupy Melbourne" protestors have been evicted, was done in the same sneaky dishonest way that so much other publicly owned property -- Telstra, the Commonwealth Bank, the Port of Brisbane Authority, Power Generators, Public Transport, etc. -- have been sold off in recent decades.
I still question how so much discussion here is not focused on positive aspects of the protest particularly when protestors have been so unfairly and so harshly dealt with by the police. As an example, Agent Provocateur wrote, "It could also be that some of them are working for the Police/ASIO/ASIS/CIA/Mossad, ..." Of course the political police can be expected to attend such events, pretending to be supporters, and do what they can to undermine public support for that protest. In what significant protest movement has this not occurred?
EMBARGO! UN Occupy Melbourne different TACTIC
I've just had a look at the Herald Sun's video:
http://video.heraldsun.com.au/2157605312/Time-to-go?area=videohighlights1
There's an old fashioned tactic which, after seeing the Police ( on WHO's Orders?!) Stampeding the Public!
might have some effect: Placing an Embargo in the shopping precinct of Melbourne to include 'all goods & services' ... have we come to that?
After seeing an online video of police treatment of apparently peaceful demonstration (on WHO's Orders?!) - it may be time to hit them back
... and where it will surely hurt! Refuse to consume, protestors! No GST for a Day!
embargo ?[em-bahr-goh]
Definition: prohibition, restriction
Synonyms: ban, bar, barrier, blockage, check, hindrance, impediment, interdict, interdiction, proscription, restraint, stoppage
Notes: a boycottis an organized popular protest, while an embargo is usually imposed by a government it may be applied by population
to express displeasure.
Mounted police were using horses to trample seated protestors!!
O. K! ... Sounds like this Occupy Melbourne - the 'organised protest' [ and ..."3 tactical response teams (I didn't know we had that many in Melbourne)" ] - are a Farce!
I smell a rat. A dirty, BIG Rat!
Sounds like a set up to me.
I smell something ominous.
'Something/Some 'Organisation' - wants to make a point - Melbourne: Put up and Shut Up
I repeat: Research & Examine this whole Shebang very, very closely!
Occupy Melbourne (not returning James' call)Sounds a bit 'Sus' !
Hi Sheila ~ I got your email regarding Occupy Melbourne this evening - I'm working at The Footbridge (St V's Group) CCU tonight:
James Sinnamon had a conversation on the phone with one of the organisers - Nick- on the evening of October 10th. He was told to ring back later, up until midnight and that Nick would be happy to talk to him. When he rang back, before midnight, he was told that Nick was not able to talk to him. Hmmn...
and from you, Sheila...
I certainly continue to find it odd that Occupy Melbourne knocked back help twice from candobetter.net if it was really interested in representing the people of Melbourne, which is what we do.
Indeed! Why would Occupy Melbourne knock back help from an 'organisation' which purports to support them?
Some serious research into this organisation is called for! Dig Deep! ... Any ( reliable) media contacts to call on, Sheila?
Headline:
Discover the Hidden Agenda - What Occupy Melbourne 's Sinister Campaign Really Intends for Melbournians! You Need To Know!
Send them THAT Sheila - *snigger* - see if that gets their arses into gear!
Keep those emails rolling in!
With Thanks
Agent Provocateur
; )
Sad to see
It is really sad to watch and anticipate the incremental and continued destruction of the natural environment around Melbourne. To think that 200 years ago it was a pristine paradise with waterways and wetlands full of bird life. In 1803 James Tucky described it "The face of the country bordering the port is beautifully picturesque, swelling into gentle elevations of the brightest verdure and dotted with trees as if planted by the hand of taste, while the ground is covered with a profusion of of flowers of every colour, in short the external appearance of the country flattered us into the most delusive dreams of fruitfulness and plenty...Aquatic birds are found in abundance in the lagoons and are black swans , ducks, teal ,black and pied shags, pelicans,gulls, red bills (a beach bird) herons, curlews, and sand larks. The land birds are eagles, crows, ravens,quail, bronze winged pigeons, and many beautiful varieties of the parrot tribe, particularly the black cockatoo ; the emu is also a native of this part of the country..." *
Now we have a huge city in which there is very little room for any of these birds to exist. I see black swans at Albert Park Lake but they all have uncomfortable looking bands around their necks and heaven knows where they find refuge during the Melbourne Grand Prix motor race run every year on the shores of the lake.
*Quotation is from "The Birth of Melbourne"- first hand accounts of early Melbourne edited by Tim Flannery- highly recommended.
Occupy Melbourne occupied all police attention today
I passed by the city square at lunch time, so I took a look.
The tents were gone. Pulled down and loaded into a garbage truck (along with sleeping bags, guitars and other personal items.) I didn't see any TV cameras - I guess they left after the tents were pulled down.
The mounted police were using horses to trample seated protestors when I arrived. I went and had lunch at my favorite cafe on Collins St. (I'm not terribly political).
When I passed by again the dog squad were savaging the surviving protestors (down to less than a hundred by my estimate).
I counted 3 tactical response teams (I didn't know we had that many in Melbourne) 1 MICA Paramedic team, 3 ambulances and (at an estimate) several hundred cops.
If you want to commit a crime in Melbourne, today's the day - every cop we have is standing in the city square.
If this is what is happenning in Melbourne (we aren't really hurting here), I wonder how things are going in New York and Athens?
>From the little I observed, the protestors didn't put up a fight.... but given that they had their stuff tossed into a garbage truck, then they were trampled by horses, savaged by dogs and manhandled into vans, I wouldn't bet that they will be so peaceful next time.
Interesting times. I will be going passed again on my way home - I will take a look.
David C.
Occupy Melbourne - malcontents not random?
> “... a group of random malcontents who don't understand the issues ...”
It could just be that the malcontents are not a random group,
and understand the real issues a lot better than
those who think that population is the critical issue in 2011.
It could also be that some of them are working for the Police/ASIO/ASIS/CIA/Mossad,
but that some are true revolutionaries,
and some that are something else now, but will be revolutionaries in the future.
When the Police/ASIO infiltrators meet up afterwards for debriefing
and report that the protesters were peacefully running tutorials on The Fractional Reserve Banking System
they will conclude that the Government-Armed Forces-Judicial-Banking-Corporate Greed-MSM complex is safe,
and everything is BAU.
Dave
problems inherent in reserve banking system
"Constitutionality of the Reserve Banking System" in the Australian context would be a pretty brief tutorial - there is nothing
unconstitutional about it in Australia. The issue isn't whether it is legal or not, the issue is its inherent problems.
Occupy Melbourne: Quite well run
I walked through the "Occupy Melbourne" area yesterday. Very friendly people despite my "establishment" appearance (I was in a suit).
Quite well run considering it is a self-organising movement with no clear leadership. I saw a First Aid tent, a Media tent and an Information tent as well as many other signs of self-organisation.
Quite well informed - they are running tutorials on subjects like "The Fractional Reserve System" and "Constitutionality of the Reserve Banking Sysem".
There may be a group of random malcontents who don't understand the issues and whose only agenda is mindless opposition - but if so, I didn't see them.
David C.
"Occupy Melbourne" today
I arrived at the "City Square' today at about mid day. Wire fences surrounded the whole area and from the south end I could only see the protesters at a distance of about 60 metres..They were encircled by police or security dressed in bright green vests. There were a lot of onlookers taking photos. Police cars were parked all along Swanston Street. A police woman kept telling the people around me to move back from the fence and stand behind an arbitrarily chosen groove on the pavement. I could hear chanting in the distance but could not hear what it was about. After about an hour of learning nothing I started to walk towards Collins Street along the other side of Swanston Street as it was not possible to do this on the same side as the square. The pavement on the other side was uncharacteristically crowded and people were getting very impatient. I suddenly became conscious of my hand bag as though I were a tourist. A young man was pacing up and down Swanston Street with a sign around his neck saying "We are the 99%" This was my first and only opportunity to talk to a participant in the protest. The young man spoke with quite a heavy European accent in answering my question which was "what is the main concern?" He said that he could not be "over there" pointing to the (still occupied) square and I took that to mean that he could not afford to come in contact with the police for immigration reasons. He said that the protest was in sympathy with the protests on Wall Street and that it is because 1% of the people own most of the wealth in the world. I asked what specifically they would like to see happen in Australia or was it only a global protest. He said that to him it was the latter. I asked if the protesters had had good treatment from the media. He said the media had been "marvelous". I asked if that meant he was happy with the coverage of the protest in the media. He said that he had seen nothing as he had been living on the square for a whole week. (I'm not sure why he could not see a newspaper) At this point about 10 young people were escorted by police across Swanston Street away from the square. They offered a modicum of resistance shouting that they had a right to protest peacefully. They then marched up the street chanting something that I still couldn't get but part of it was "Occupy Melbourne". It would have been useless trying to talk to any of them as they were following each other in a determined fashion and I don't think would have liked to be picked off from the group. At this stage there were several police on horses on our side of the road . The horses' faces were protected with hard transparent masks. I then walked towards Collins Street then crossed to the north east corner and watched proceedings from there for about half an hour. The street was very crowded and protesters were still on the square. 3 young people climbed up on the Bourke and Wills monument. Then I clearly heard a familiar chant "Always was, always will be Aboriginal land!" I walked away over the pavement on the stolen land, returning at 4.50pm. By this time all the protesters had gone and the square was still fenced off with notices inside to say this was for maintenance. I picked up a copy of the free newspaper, MX and read that $15,000 worth of damage had been done but I could see no damage at all. I understand from news coverages that the scene later turned violent and people were hurt.
Policies for the benefit of the elite -
Too many government decisions and policies are being made for the benefit of the elite, at the disadvantage of the majority. Massive corporations with their financial power are able to hold governments captive due to their political and economic powers. More and more capital is going to feed rich corporations, while the general public continue to fare worse. Costs continue to increase, and living standards decline. People feel powerless in the face of large monolithic lobby groups. We are plagued with "shortages" and cutbacks to funding for education and training, for example, and more people find themselves homeless in what used to be the "Lucky Country". Land, farms, manufacturing and properties are being sold off to foreign powers. The people are becoming the economic "fodder", "fillers" for real estate, or packed-in consumers, for the benefit of the elite. As global powers and markets increase, the normal rate-payer, tax-payer becomes distanced from policy making, and from democratic processes.
World Vegan Week Oct 24 - 31
The 5th annual World Go Vegan Week is taking place this year from October 24th through 31st. (with In Defense of Animals)
The vegan lifestyle is picking up steam; celebrities like Ellen DeGeneres, Alicia Silverstone, Lea Michele, Carrie Underwood, Emily Deschanel, Tobey Maguire, and Bill Clinton, among many others, have all made this compassionate and healthy lifestyle choice.
Give it a try for at least one week. The animals, the environment, and your health can only benefit from your compassionate choice.
Click here for more information on the vegan lifestyle.
Veganism enables people to live in balance with all of Earth's creatures and promote freedom from exploitation for animals as part of their everyday lives. Modern animal agriculture is cruel and violent toward the chickens, cows, pigs and other creatures used to make meat, milk and eggs.
Occupy Melb: Is City Square private or public
We are very happy to focus on the positive elements of Occupy Melbourne. As I wrote, we are happy to publish comments, articles, anything from them. We are calling for this from them. We yearn to assist democracy in any way we can and therefore to assist Occupy Melbourne in any constructive move to shore up democracy. On the issue of Free Speech; our rights there need to be clear. At the moment they are not. Neither are our rights to free association. We don't have a right to this. And I believe that City Square is privately owned or privately managed, so is not a peoples' square. If I am correct, what is Our square? Do the people have a place in Melbourne?
Let's focus on offering constructive suggestions
I am also suspicious of far left groups who have clearly acted in recent decades as a prop for the ruling elites. They have been a prop by consuming the time, money and energy of people who would have made much better use of their time and been far more effective, even as individuals, let alone as members of genuine groups for the betterment of society. Nevertheless, I think that too much profile has been given to those groups in this article. I think a few well researched articles which document their track record, together with links from articles like this, would be sufficient. Certainly, those groups should be watched closely by those who understand them and candobetter should draw the attention of readers to any actions they take which may undermine "Occupy Melbourne", but, in the meantime, candobetter should focus on the positive aspects of this movement and on offering constructive suggestions as to how they can better go about achieving their goals.
Jon Fain and Occupy Melbourne and Population
I heard a lady ring Jon Fain today from the Occupy Melbourne site. She said that she was protesting about the "mainstream media" not giving people like her a voice. Jon argued that she had a voice because she was on the phone to him. This completely defused her and it seemed unfair to me. Of course we don't have a voice on the media! Nearly everyone there is a paid talking head for big business. Real people are exceptional there. You have to be famous or "important".
For instance, yesterday morning the local ABC was talking about Melbourne’s population growth and was it “sustainable”? Jill Quirk, the Victorian President of Sustainable Population Australia, rang in. She told them that she was the branch president of SPA in Vic. I heard that she waited about 40 minutes - a long time at any rate to get on air when she was introduced as simply as “Jill of name of suburb". She said that current population growth was not sustainable, to which Jon Faine the presenter said “oh why Melbourne is the least dense of any comparable city in the world!” Jill said that this was what people enjoyed about Melbourne” to which he replied “oh but you can enjoy other cities, have you ever lived in one of the larger cities of the world?” Jill said that she had but that she had not rung in to talk about how she may have enjoyed living in London and made the point that Melbourne's population growth is at the expense of the environment and that the 2008 State of the Environment report had shown that nearly all of the environmental indicators in Victoria are declining as a result of population pressure. To this JF said …”Well I've gotta move on….”
What he 'moved on to' was an interminable discussion of the Queen's visit to Australia. I noticed that he was still talking about this when he interrupted today to 'cover' Occupy Melbourne.
Anyway my point is that we don't have proper representation in our media or in our government. This ability that the Queen has to take over the airwaves in ridiculous discussions aboutwhether to curtsey or not is a great example of this.
So I feel that Jon Fain is just misrepresenting the way the ABC treats the people of Melbourne. They are really just interested in giving the powerful air with a little sprinkle of pretend democracy in tiny sound-grabs from the greater 'unwashed'.
More on Occupy Melbourne
Thank you, Jenny T. I would also like to know whether Occupy Melbourne is for real. As soon as we heard (October 10th, 2011) about plans for an Occupy Melbourne, I contacted the site and told them that I would like to represent the case of people protesting against infilling and overpopulation, as we represent the case on candobetter.net. I made some references to articles including a cartoon about the role of land costs in driving up wages and making businesses uncompetitive - especially relevant given the financial context of the protest. My comment remained 'under moderation' all night and all day. I registered to receive comments by email and when these finally came through, they were sparse and the two comments I had made (the second one being a query as to why the first one remained in moderation) were not published, did not come through on email. See below in square brackets the record I kept of my inquiry; if you click on the link now, it will take you nowhere.
[http://occupymelbourne.org/workshops/#comment-31
Sheila Newman says: Your comment is awaiting moderation.
October 10, 2011 at 1:25 am
I have registered to receive correspondence. I made a post myself but it has not appeared and there have been very few items of correspondence made available. What is going on?
Reply ]
James Sinnamon had a conversation on the phone with one of the organisers - Nick- on the evening of October 10th. He was told to ring back later, up until midnight and that Nick would be happy to talk to him. When he rang back, before midnight, he was told that Nick was not able to talk to him.
These responses, plus the very light-on correspondence I received by email, which I stopped reading after a while - so maybe I should go back and look - made me seriously question whether the whole movement had been captured by the establishment who would be managing it to make it ineffective by pushing relatively unfocused individuals into the positions of 'leaders', whilst the establishment led from behind. If this were the case then I would anticipate that the event, if it gained enough momentum to attract people to participate of their own volition, would be broken up by the introduction of violence. The violence would also be organised by the establishment, who typically use agent provocateurs posing as 'anarchists', 'socialists' or 'communists'. (Note that I have nothing against anarchists, socialists and communists.) My own experience has been that the Refugee Action Collective and the so-called Socialist Alliance (which both have heavily infiltrated the Greens and Friends of the Earth) often harbour such agent provocateurs on a long-term basis. I suspect that those people are paid by external organisations which the rank and file know nothing about. I looked up Nick Carson and found that he had been a Greens candidate previously. We know that members of the Socialist Alliance shouted down people in the Greens last year when they tried to present an updated Greens population policy, leading at least one person to simply leave and go away, saying they were disgusted and depressed by the bullying.
I certainly continue to find it odd that Occupy Melbourne knocked back help twice from candobetter.net if it was really interested in representing the people of Melbourne, which is what we do.
I would be very grateful to hear some reassurance from people at Occupy Melbourne that my concerns are unjustified. They should note that we went ahead and wrote an article (on the basis of almost nil feedback) in support of this potentially very important movement. We would be happy to publish articles and comments by Nick Carson and any other organisers and participants in the Occupy Melbourne movement. We are not in the business of knocking down real democracy and will go out of our way to represent Occupy Melbourne if it shows it is for real.
Occupy Melbourne has been peaceful
I had a bit to do with Occupy Melbourne. The Socialist Alliance had been present on the fringes of Occupy Melbourne but organisers seemed to keep the protests peaceful by keeping them out of the main activities. I don't know what has gone wrong now. The police said some new people who wanted to cause trouble had moved in in City Square. I don't know if it was the socialist alliance.
Occupy Melbourne impression
My impression - 'nouveau hippies' without much idea of how things work, just feeling pushed around. As we all are.
Is Occupy Melbourne for real?
Is Occupy Melbourne just another Greens and Socialist Alliance pretend demonstration? Can anyone tell me? Is there anything happening there representing peoples' anger about forced urban densification and overpopulation? Because I hear nothing of these important subjects I assume that people with real complaints and serious solutions aren't welcome. Am I wrong?
Not impressed
I have heard the news today that the deposed Libyan leader has been killed by the rebels in his country, it appears as he was hiding in a drainpipe. If this is true , why could he not have been captured and put on trial for crimes he is accused of ? It is unseemly that Barak Obama should rejoice over this event however it is akin to the alleged unceremonious disposal of Osama Bin Laden and of Saddam Hussein. These events are hardly hallmarks of an enlightened world that supposedly has civilized options
Solutions to rampant population growth
- Contact your politicians on the topics of growth, and how it is impacting on our green wedges, our environment and on our cities.
- read population policies for the political parties before you vote
- vote for parties or independents with a population cap, such as the STABLE POPULATION PARTY OF AUSTRALIA
- don't be intimidated into ignoring the issue, due to political-correctness. It's NOT racism, but about numbers
- "Green"/environmental groups need to stop avoiding the source greenhouse gases, and loss of environmental integrity
- write to the papers. All the "shortages" are about population outstripping resources
- Population growth is a political policy, not natural. As such, it can and must be changed.
Curious silence on Australian forums about Libya, Syria
I attempted to post he following in response to John Quiggin's article, MLK and non-violent protest, but my comment vanished without trace after I hit the "Submit Comment" button. I didn't even see the usual "Your comment is awaiting moderation" notice. I will try again to submit this comment at a later point. John Quiggin had posted at least three articles in support of NATO's war against Libya: All necessary measures of 18 March, The end of tyranny of 23 August and The just fight not fought of 14 September. Some posters challenged John Quiggin's support for the invasion of Libya. There was debate in which John Quiggin's logic did not seem to stand up. He certainly failed to produce the evidence that he was asked for in support of his claims. After that debate John Quiggin has fallen silent on these questions in a fashion similar to larvatusprode.net and WebDiary which have not even mentioned those conflicts. Webdiary has a stated policy of not conducting further discussions on the causes of the 2003 Iraq War or (unofficial) "9/11 conspiracy theories". That policy now seems to embrace discussion of any war that Australia is involved in or which the Australian Government supports.
Martin Luther King once said: "There comes a time, when silence is betrayal."
Whilst silence is preferable to publishing misleading articles, I don't think Martin Luther King would be too impressed with the curious silence that has descended over Australian political discussion forums concerning the ongoing crimes which are being committed against Libya and the crimes which are being threatened against Syria, if he were alive today.
civil trial in 1999 found that James Earl Ray had been framed for King's murder and that King had been killed as a result of a conspiracy by the US Army and the Memphis Police Department.
Update: non-publication appears to be intentional censorship
(12:03PM, 21 October 2011) My second attempt to post the comment to the above forum page similarly failed. How this could have happened unless John Quiggin was intentionally blocking posts by me is beyond me.[1]
I preceded that post with the following:
Ikonoclast (@19) wrote:
Paradoxically, advocates of non-violent protest can also play a role in causing deaths; deaths of their own followers. That too is a kind of collateral damage.
Even the most extremely doctrinaire and naive practitioners of "non-violence" are unlikely to have caused nearly as much harm to their followers as those who advocate violent tactics in a society such as our own so easily could.
Although Australia's formal democracy only rarely translates into "Government ... for the people by the people" as, for example, the privatisation of Telstra and Australia's participation in the illegal invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, etc., etc. show, our circumstances could easily be a lot worse.
We still have the right to vote out governments we don't like, and (in practice, if we don't read the fine print of the legislation too closely) the right to free speech and to protest.
Committing illegal acts of violence, when we still have those rights could well give our secret government the excuse it needs to take away those rights. So, I think it is safe to assume that anyone who advocates violent tactics in support of progressive causes in Australia is either an agent provocateur or stupid.
Footnotes
1. What you can do: Consider posting to that page a complaint against apparent censorship on that site. Include in that complaint the full text of the post I attempted to make and a link back to this page. Also, be sure to advise us here on this page of your complaint.
Ok... what do you propose then?
How we fix it...
Bimblebox major nature reserve threat by Waratah coal-mine
"Waratah Coal's Environmental Impact Statement says 52 per cent of the refuge would become an open-cut mine and the remaining 48 per cent could be affected by subsidence from long-wall mining."
For full article go to: http://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/Anger-Palmer-threatens-nature-abc-2134511312.html?x=0
A massive coal mining project in central Queensland has set off a debate about the future of one of the nation's land conservation schemes.
If approved, Clive Palmer's Galilee Basin proposal would be the first mine to be allowed in a nature refuge.
Half of it will become an open cut mine, while the other half will be significantly affected by long-wall mining.
[...]
Standing in the mine's way is the Bimblebox Nature Refuge, set up by local landowner Paolo Cassoni.
The prospect of the Waratah mine has horrified Mr Cassoni, who signed the land over as a refuge in the belief it would be protected forever.
"We've seen a lot of land clearing and probably central-west and central Queensland had the worst land-clearing right of Australia, and so we decided to buy a property and to secure it from land clearing.
That property was Bimblebox," he said.
A nature refuge is a voluntary but legally binding agreement between the State Government and a landholder to preserve land with significant conservation values.
[...]
Queensland's Department of Environment website states that the intent of a nature refuge agreement is permanent protection, and termination can only be enacted under exceptional circumstances.
Mr Cassoni is concerned the mine will create a precedent [...]
"Mine is the first to go under the chop if you like.
There's another 54, I think, for exploration, flash mining lease for coal and 54 other minerals," he said.[...]
[...]
A spokesman for Mr Palmer declined the ABC's request for an interview.
Federal Environment Minister Tony Burke issued a statement saying: "I understand there is some community concern around the proposed development.
The proposal is now open for public comment.
[...]Queensland Environment Minister Vicky Darling was not available for comment.
China - good or bad
I very much agree with your sentiments regarding the switching of charity funding. But you had China at the top of your "worst offenders " list of countries.
This is a mistake - China has done more to reduce it's population than any other country in history. If it hadn't , there would be many more millions of starving families in the world today.
Coal mining threat at Bacchus Marsh
The mining protest in Bacchus Marsh is not only a case of not-in-my-backyard, but should be not-in-anyone's-backyard.
About 120 people have attended a meeting at Bacchus Marsh west of Melbourne (Tuesday 18th Oct) to try to stop a mining company from taking over their land for an open-cut coalmine.
Residents now fear Mantle will apply for a full mining licence to exploit the coal, which it would export to India.
West Australian company Mantle Mining has said it's discovered a huge seam of brown coal under a farming community in Parwan, just outside Bacchus Marsh. This is supposed to be an age of "clean" energy?
How can Mantle Mining be in the early stages of exploration in the area, with plans to begin mining? Even if they have legal mining rights to coal under private property, it is impossible and unethical to access it without permission from the owners. No financial compensation to owners would be adequate if they lose their peace, lifestyles, and the food-producing potential of the area.
But West Australian company Mantle Mining could have a fight on its hands, with the local community bitterly opposed to its plans for an open-cut mine.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/not-in-our-backyard-locals-tell-upbeat...
Under the Brumby government, Victoria’s Minister for Energy and Resources Peter Batchelor ruled out an Exergen plan of exporting up to 12 million tonnes of Latrobe Valley brown coal to India. Now the Baillieu is considering the retrograde step of opening the door to the export of greenhouse gas emissions.
Premier Baillieu condescendingly sympathised with the land-owners, but apparently personal rights to protect rural businesses and fertile farming land should "not at the expense of the state's economic interests"!
Victoria's "economic interests" should be based on much-needed 21st century innovation, knowledge-based investments, food production, well-managed investments in natural resources, and clean renewable energy. Our State's economy shouldn't rely on extreme and counterproductive industries that sacrifice long-term sustainability for short-term gain.
The Coalition went to the Victorian elections without an environmental policy - and their retrograde policies are evidence of it.
Tks so much Lucinda. Pls
Tks so much Lucinda. Pls checkout www.veganwarriors.com.au, like us on fb and subscribe to my blog if you wish! xx
Can't ignore the "P" in the I=PAT equation
The article stated that "A key reason that massive population growth has not led to disaster has been the extraordinary growth in agricultural productivity." Yes, the "green revolution" thanks to Norman Borlaug in the 1960s gave us a 40 years reprieve of higher productivity. He warned of the "population monster" that needed addressing. That time has finished now, and natural resources are dwindling.
People naively see science and technology will produce the black-box with solutions to global food production and ecological overshoot, but the scientists and growers aren't so confident.
The end of poverty and food security will come with population stability, and decline. We are heading into a time when the planet has never had so many people, and so few wildlife. The species biomass balance has been turned upside down. Our planet is facing many challenges, and with heavier human numbers, the problems now will only get worse.
As for anthropogenic climate change, of course population size needs to be addressed. The I=PAT equation can't ignore the major cause of daily emissions - human activities and affluence (A), technology that uses energy (T), and population size. (P) Reducing A and T while P is increasing it obviously counterproductive. (This is what a lot of environmental groups do - ignore the P!)
On Housing case
Being a landmark case, it is really a very interesting read. But I guess this kind of scenario is not applicable to some other countries especially the developing ones.
Ed. We sure attract a lot of essay and thesis writing internet services. What is happening? Do they websurf looking for information and occasionally make comments as individuals or simply to advertise their services? How much, I wonder, is candobetter.net plagiarised.
Look in the mirror
People who talk disrespectfully of "randy possums" should look in the mirror and see their reflection as part of a plague of humans. Sorry but it's the truth. The human population would look like Jupiter next to our moon or perhaps a meteor if population sizes were to be compared.Someone rang in to local ABC radio this morning with a gratuitous remark about a "buck kangaroo" chasing a "doe" somewhere in the outer suburbs of Melbourne . His complaint was that this would result in an increase of the population and that, (he continued) there are more kangaroos in Australia now than there were when "white people" arrived. What a cheek to even mention the increase in numbers of another species ,even if it were true! Australia now carries more than 20 times the number of humans as it did 250 years ago and the world population is about to hit its predicted 7 billion.
Lack of city planning
Not only would continuous urban conservation corridors be wildlife friendly, but human and city-friendly too. Rapid population growth and lack of foresight means that there are fragmented areas of wildlife habitat, and small isolated groups. Rather than being "rogue" possums or "breeding like rabbits", native animals largely only reproduce according to existing natural resources and habitats. This is unlike Melbourne's human population boom, for the real-estate market.
Former Liberal Premier, Rupert Hamer, in the 1960s wanted ensure that Melbourne would not become a monolith buildings and concrete. He planned the "green wedges", or "lungs" of Melbourne. Now, they are under threat from our present Liberal government that wants to access them for more "developments" - and profits.
The possum-friendly flora, the Eucalyptus, the Melaleucas and the acacias, are all easy to maintain and grow, and enhance our living areas. They break the contiguous concrete, glass, bricks and steel and soften the landscape.
Instead of birth control for the possums, a holistic approach to any possum problems in heritage trees would surely be the prevention of possums accessing them, not feeding them, and ensuring more native trees. Vilifying possums as a problem to be controlled is because of than lack of maintenance of trees, and lack of city planning, and lack of appreciation of urban wildlife. At least though, the Yarra City Council decided against a "cull"!
Carbon tax will be negated by population growth
If Australia takes no action by 2020 our carbon emissions could be 20 per cent higher than in 2000, not 5 to 25 per cent lower as the Australian Government intends.
Bob Birrell and Ernest Healy from Monash University's Centre for Population and Urban Research found 83 per cent of the forecast increase in carbon emissions from 2000 to 2020 is attributable to population growth.
It is impossible for Australia to meet the proposed greenhouse gas emissions target through domestic action. Buying permits from overseas is an essential part of the plan. This means that Australia will be gaining from other more sustainable nations.
Our target for greenhouse gas reduction is actually more like a 25 per cent reduction in per capita terms just to achieve just 5 per cent overall. More consumers means energy demands will increase, while at the same time energy producers will be trying to out-pace increasing carbon emissions with "clean" energy.
It's like trying to reduce the contents of a container of liquid while it is still being filled at the top!
The target reduction must the keep outstripping gross emissions due to population growth. With contradictory policies coming from Parliament House, how are we to really believe and embrace the carbon tax?
We should be doing some obvious things, like stabilizing our population and investing in R@D for alternative energy sources.
Fossil fuels have spurned economic and population growth, but it must be acknowledged that the carbon age has ended.
Have your say about Brimbank’s ‘Plants and Animals’ by Nov 2
Draft Biodiversity Strategy Consultation Period Oct 10 - Nov 2 2011
http://www.brimbank.vic.gov.au/News/News_and_Updates/Draft_Biodiversity_Strategy_Consultation_Period_Oct_10_-_Nov_2_2011
Tuesday 4 October, 2011
Have your say about Brimbank’s ‘Plants and Animals’
Brimbank City Council’s draft Biodiversity Strategy, which provides a plan to protect and enhance our natural areas over the next 10 years, is now available for community feedback. The strategy has been developed as part of Council’s commitment to protect, maintain and enhance biodiversity within the municipality as identified within the Brimbank Community Plan (2009 - 2030).
These natural areas which are scattered throughout Brimbank provide us with a snapshot of the plants and animals that were once widespread across the area and in fact across a large area of Western Victoria. Many of these significant plants and animals have been recognised and are protected by State and Federal government legislation.
The strategy will assist the Council to implement measures to ensure we continue to protect and improve the quality and quantity of these natural areas and look for opportunities to connect these sites through natural corridors ensuring the long term sustainability of the native species and vegetation communities. Most importantly, we will continue to foster greater community understanding and connection with our significant natural areas which will continue to create and build on the active participation and ownership already shown by the wider Brimbank community.
Get Involved
Workshop One: October 19 2011
6:30pm-8:00pm
Brimbank City Council - Keilor Municipal Offices
704B Old Calder Highway
Keilor 3036
Melway Map 14 H5.
Workshop Two: October 27 2011
7.00pm-8:30pm
Glengala Community Centre.
Corner Simmie Street and Glengala Road
West Sunshine 3020
Melway Map 40 E2.
Please note: Light refreshment will be provided.
Further Information
Draft Biodiversity StrategyDraft Biodiversity Strategy Community Consultation BrochureDraft Biodiversity Strategy Technical Reference
Provide your comments by:
Completing our questionnaire
Comments can also be made in writing by 5pm on November 2nd 2011:
Submission to draft Biodiversity Strategy
Environment Department
Brimbank City Council
PO Box 70
Sunshine VIC 3020
Or email comments to [email protected]
For further information or to RSVP for the Workshops please contact our Biodiversity Officer on 9249 4905 or email [email protected]
Why won't media properly scrutinise alternative PM's record?
When I conducted a search using the terms:
"Paul Zammit" Australia GST
... I failed to find any record of John Howard's manipulation of the electoral processes to impose the GST except for what is on candobetter and contributions by daggett and myself to johnquiggin.com. (However, as footnote in the article above shows, discussion includes comment with quote from Let's have the honest truth, once and for all of 18 August 2004 by Alan Ramsey.)
That's unfortunate because the public discontent with Julia Gillard's Government may well lead to her Government being voted out and replaced by a Tony Abbott Liberal/National Government - possibly in an early election, if the mainstream newsmedia gets its way.
This could happen in the same way that Australians' rightful dislike of then Labor Prime Minister Paul Keating caused John Howard's Liberal/National Government to be elected in 1996. After Howard was elected he took Keating's scandalous mismanagement as license to implement his own policies which were even more harmful to public welfare. This included his vicious slash-and-burn budgets which he carried out using his "discovery" of Paul Keating's $10 billion budgetary "black hole" as his excuse.
If the media wants us to embrace Tony Abbott at least it should more closely scrutinise the record of the Howard Government of which Tony Abbott was also a Minister, particularly in its early years.
A proper scrutiny would most likely convince a great many that Abbott is no more deserving of their vote than Gillard and they might start seeking real alternatives to both.
Economics, nature and government
A few questions to consider:
Henry George was writing in the context of population growth, railroad expansion, and rapid economic development and increasing manufacturing volumes. I can imagine that this would have been seen to bring wealth to U.S. citizens. He was writing at a time when population growth would have been considered a normal pattern as it is here and now in Australia. But how would Henry George’s system work with a stable population?
How does a stable population affect the cost of land?
What can make the cost of land go up?
Suggestions:
lots of people want to buy it or monopolize it
a for accommodation
b commerce
c manufacturing
b agriculture
c. forestry
d mining
d tourism
e ecological services
Where does the intrinsic value of the land fit in?
A house/land that was isolated but later is near the hub of a lot of services provided by the community becomes more valuable. Henry George would say that the owner should pay more to monopolize it. The owner then has the choice of moving on if he can’t afford the new rent, staying and enjoying it if he can or capitalizing on his block of land by densifying it and charging rent to others.
Economic rationalism- reduces everything to a dollar value
Is Georgism a form of economic rationalism?- or is it just about a fair way to collect taxes for necessary expenses for the community. It rewards industry and maximizes the $ yield from land
The areas that you mention - open space, nature, - are they areas of government responsibility where a boundary is made which says economic activity and exploitation of land and resources stops?
Can an economic system be made to take all this in? Is it reasonable to ask it to?
Candy and Sticky Fingers
Had tears in my eyes reading your story Jaylene. Thanks so much for sharing, and all the work you do caring for our beautiful animals.
Great Sharing Jaylene!
Thanks for sharing this important part of your and Candy's life. Keep up the great work Jaylene!
Anthony.
Symbol of energy efficiency
Two of my friends were discussing yesterday how they would get rid of the modest sized Hill's hoist in the yard of a new house just purchased in a Victorian country town. My thoughts were "But why? the house has the advantage of a generous sunny back yard which easily accommodates the rotary clothes line " But there was no equivocation as to its fate- it had to go! It was despised!
So much of the propaganda we have been subjected to over the last 3 decades has targeted and ridiculed the Hills Hoist such that few would now want be seen owning one. It has become an aesthetic pariah! It was seen over the years obviously as an obstacle between developers salivating at the idea of "urban consolidation" and their prey- the owners of the block large enough to accommodate the Hill's Hoist.
I shocked the Hill's Hoist cleansers with my heretical assessment of the unwanted structure. I said it was "a symbol of a disappearing universal affluence, access to private open space and a symbol of democracy as well as of supreme energy efficiency."
Afterthought: Annual energy bill for the Hill's Hoist- nil. Carbon emissions of the Hill's hoist- nil (except for manufacture and mining of components). Payback period: depends on the cost of energy v.s. rates on land in the future. (or "going forward" as politicians express this concept of time.)
To screen Triangle Wars in your community ...
If you would like to screen THE TRIANGLE WARS in your community, please get in touch to see how easy it can be.
Film hire is available to community groups for a discounted rate. Phone (07) 3262 2009 or email [email protected] for details. Screen THE TRIANGLE WARS in your community to raise debate on your local development issues or as a fundraiser event. Get inspired!
High rise is the most inefficient type of life style
The ACF is not the only report that condemns high density living as being a greater energy-guzzling lifestyle. It's like saying battery hens is "better" for the environment because they take up less room, but the cost is using the hens as an egg-laying process in a manufacturing environment. It ignores the costs of their lives, their living standards, natural behaviors, their lifespans, their health and the necessary beak-cutting they must suffer to stop "aggression" and self-mutilations.
High rise living means that per capital emissions exceed by far those of people living in townhouses or detached houses.
The implications on our live won't be so different to that on battery hens. We can expect to see increased crime, declining personal and environmental health, and the costs of living increase as we get strangled by the costs of growth.
Growth con-artistry
"In fact, the Australian Conservation Foundation's Consumption Atlas shows that greenhouse gas emissions of those living in high-density areas are greater than for those living in low-density areas. An analysis of the data shows that the average carbon dioxide equivalent emission of the high-density core areas of Australian cities is 27.9 tons per person whereas that for the low-density outer areas is 17.5 tons per person."
I can guess what the growthist lobby will say to the above - They will say, "Yes, but we would plan it PROPERLY." That's the way they operate, always pretending that in the future it will be different. True con-artist style.
U must c Triangle Wars, support GetUp Direct Democracy proposal
I saw Triangle Wars last night and thoroughly recommend it. Make sure you get to see it at one of the sessions I listed yesterday.
It's a great and uplifting story when I have become so accustomed to the welfare of the majority being sacrificed to selfish vested interests. On this occasion, residents of Saint Kilda succeeded in throwing out at the ballot box councillors of the City of Port Phillip who ignored the clear wishes of the community they were supposedly representing and tried to impose a huge development in a car park on publicly owned land on the beach front.
Not every Australian community can hope to be as organised and coordinated as were the citizens of Saint Kilda. So, far more often, the interests of developers have prevailed in Australia in recent decades. If Australia had Direct Democracy written into the Constitution, it would not be be possible for selfish vested interests and their glove puppet Councillors to impose their wishes upon the local community as they almost succeeded in doing in Triangle Wars.
Please support the GetUp proposal for Direct Democracy at tinyurl.com/3nmwwjq.
Georgism, wages, land costs and productivity
Hi Geoff,
Feel free to continue this discussion. Debating Georgism requires quite a lot of skill and I can easily trip up. Here is how I see it.
It is not just third world rental costs that Australian business cannot compete against, it is average rent and housing costs in Western Europe, in countries like France. The system in those countries taxes land-speculation and the transmission of inheritances outside family and tends to keep people movements down, agricultural land intact and businesses local. The English speaking countries all pay ridiculous prices in land purchase and rent. They are all artificially stimulating population growth to keep those prices high, and they suffer from continuous, frenetic population movement.
You write, "Obviously this doesn't solve the population growth problem, which is one of the root causes of our troubles, but reducing property prices and rents certainly wont eliminate that problem either." However, while property developers can raise the value of their land and developments by importing customers, high land values cause population growth. If you reduce the opportunity to make money out of land speculation then population growth becomes a cost rather than a source of money. If land were no longer commodified, there would be no incentive to import more customers. Henry George does not tax that kind of land-speculation. He taxes the hoarding of 'undeveloped' land that might, if 'developed' yield financial returns. This method punishes leaving natural spaces alone wherever humans might turn them to some kind of financial profit.
Your point about raising production is problematic because it requires more and more production as pressure of population raises land-costs. That assumes that it is possible to endlessly leverage production on manpower or other fuels, but that is a game of diminishing returns and if it were endlessly possible there would not be so much chiseling over wages or much need for land speculation to acquire material wealth. We are all working harder and harder for less, and paying more for less land. People now work longer hours than they did in the 1950s, yet, in Brisbane for instance, only the very rich can afford the houses on generous blocks that working families once lived in. Also, did you understand that high wages are necessary for workers to pay for high rents? Thus land costs underly wage costs.
But it seems to me that Henry George did understand the problem of high rents and how they were undesirable. His idea was that any business that would pay high rents would do so because it made higher profits due to services that accompanied high rents (roads, electricity, many clients, government offices etc). When the rents exceeded the profits, the businesses would move further out. What would happen if transnational corporations came in and drove up the rents and then caused all the small businesses to crash? Did he say anything about that?
The Henry George system brilliantly utilises population density as a factor in land values but, as far as I can see, it unwittingly endorses a nightmare situation where people can be absolutely packed in slums by rentiers (people who get the rent) in the guise of productivity of land. The renters (people who pay the rent) must then work like slaves in the widget factories to pay the high rents that come with the higher land-values associated with the high population density. The theory is that the state will claw back those profits in land-tax and then somehow redistribute them to the rest of the population. This part of the theory is the best part, but, for me, suffers from the usual problems of governments removed from localities, which always seem to redistribute any taxes to their friends rather than to the whole community, so we need some kind of democratic input here.
Democracy and natural affection for locality and community seem to be disregarded under Georgism. Under Georgism, it seems to be okay to move little old widows out of the houses they were born in, artists out of cheap garrets where they compose misunderstood masterpieces, and dreamers out of backyard sheds, to make way for widget factories. My view questions widget factories and suggests we need relocalisation and for more people to produce primary products and consume less secondary adn tertiary ones, notably the mass-manfufactured ones. Georgist values are survival values for pioneer towns, (and the same as current Australian mainstream economics ones). Neither work to facilitate climax communities where people might simply enjoy life simply and intelligently according to the ideals of ancient Athenian philosophers as oil declines and the population balloon of the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries quietly deflates.
The Henry George perspective is pure economics and suffers from the problems of pure economics. That is, it seems to have no means of measuring values outside densely-populated areas and values which are barely commodifiable. For instance, it cannot take seriously intrinsic values of wild spaces, and positional values of natural ammenity. Nor does it understand the thermodynamic rules that are preserved in the natural world and on which our lives depend. Even if some very rich person or company is prepared to pay huge taxes to preserve a river or a stream, when that person dies or the company goes broke, under the Georgist system, that river or stream will inevitably be destroyed, heat islands will develop etc. Usually the stream has no chance and is the first thing to go. Georgism has no means to value other species and does not even count them. It gives materially productive output primacy at the expense of freedom not to work and freedom to enjoy life, ammenity and place. It suffers thus from the same problems of other forms of capitalism and of communism.
Its chief selling point is that it redistributes monetary wealth to the community, through the collection of taxes. Its chief downside is that it surrenders community, place, self-government and democracy to an abstract market that responds to rules that reward population density and infrastructure alone. In this it differs little from our current system.
You might point to systems that commodify trees and rare animals and tax companies to preserve them, as in Greenhouse tax schemes for locking carbon up or to promote the breeding of rare animals for legal trade. However these are very artificial and clunky solutions to problems which, in my opinion, would be much better dealt with by returning power locally, taxing land-speculation and land-commodification (see para one about inheritances.)
Henry George was right to say that his system presented a solution to poverty, but it did not return land and self-government to people who had been deprived of it in the first place; it merely made the best out of the monetized reinvention of the world as a commodity market.
It seems to me that Georgism will always nurture and defend growth. Growth is now a problem, as you say, and I don't think that Henry George would have stuck with his original recipe. He would have had to have allowed major importance for human rights and to have recognised the primacy of our ecological envelope over everything else. Pollution taxes don't do that either, by the way because people will pay to pollute and then charge their customers.
It may surprise you to hear that I used to be on the Board at Prosper Australia. It was an admirable institution in those days.[1] I have a great admiration for Henry George and Georgism. It is an intellectual challenge to work out why it does not satisfy ecologically. From the ecological perspective, it is flawed, in my opinion, because it is unable to give importance to anything that does not have monetary value and it will always preference higher monetary value over lower monetary value, even if that lower monetary value contains all the things that people love.
An example of this can be found in The Triangle Wars, by the way. The Triangle Wars is about a huge development for the Melbourne seaside suburb of St Kilda that was proposed and agreed to by the Port Melbourne Council against the objections of many residents of St Kilda. The residents objected because they valued the view that the development would block and they valued their continuing access to the remaining simple beach. They did not want to replace the relics of a 19th century Australian bohemia with a generic shopping mall. They were against higher density occupation of the area and they were against more shops. They said there was enough shopping. Henry George would have said that the residents of St Kilda should move out to Frankston (where similar developments are happening) or further out, to Hastings (where a huge development is happening). In the end under the conditions prevailing through high population growth in Australia, the residents of St Kilda would have had to have dispersed into the hinterland, half way to Culgoa to avoid major developments that sought to intensify the take from a captive population and to take advantage of established services. If they had done that, however, many of them might have lost access to their jobs and incomes. So Georgism in this case means that you have to wear the commercial impositions that accompany high population density. You do not have the right to say how your town will be run. (The residents won this battle for once in The Triangle Wars, by the way.)
Georgism needs an ecological and a democratic component that is just as strong as the land-tax concept to work. At the moment it has no such thing. It also has no respect for locality. We need to see Henry George's system in the context of when he lived. He was looking at the upside of growth at that particular time in America. We are looking at the absolute downside today. Growth is our biggest problem today. Georgism is a recipe for higher densification. It punishes the preservation of space and green. Every city in Australia is being ruined by high rates that stop people from preserving nature anywhere close to houses and businesses. And towns and cities are now linked by multi-lane freeways, lined by endless suburbs, devoid of kangaroos, devoid even of farmland. So, even if you buy a car and travel for fifty km you still may not be able to experience the refreshment of natural surroundings and the sight of birds and other creatures.
Geogism assumes that people will use land for 'production' (a thing that ecologists believe there is already too much of). However, under guise of 'production', landlords can simply rent out rooms to house dense populations at prices where the landlords will make a profit over the land tax. The people who rent the rooms will have to work harder in order to pay their rent. Making people work harder is supposed to be a 'good thing' if you believe that we need more 'productivity' but, again, I say, ecologists think we need less productivity.
To avoid greater ecological overshoot, to slow down oil depletion, to reduce pollution, we need to produce less and to become fewer. The way to achieve this is to work fewer hours and pay less for land so that we can live more peacefully, happily and less frenetically 'productively'. In Georgism services are associated with population density and you pay for the services via land tax. However, in conditions of high population density, as services become scanty, people have no choice (as in Melbourne at the moment), yet land-prices continue to rise.
I am sure that more dedicated Georgists will let me know what I have got wrong. It occurs to me that we cannot hold Henry George's theory responsible for solving everything. It is an economic tool more than a political system.
[1] Regrettably, Prosper Australia (a very wealthy NGO) was taken over by members of the Socialist Alliance, the Refugee Action Collective and The Right to Life, and promoted particularly as EarthSharing. The people involved in this takeover objected greatly to its association with Sustainable Population Australia (SPA) and threatened to demonstrate outside Prosper Australia if Prosper allowed SPA to continue to have meetings there.
Write a review of The Triangle Wars
Consider writing a review on a cinema site of this film to publicise its importance.
Here at the Classic Cinema Elsternwick internet site, for instance, you can write a review:
http://www.yourmovies.com.au/movies/index.cfm?action=movie_info&imdb_id=2049573&title_id=43402
Triangle wins Best Australian documentary award!
The Triangle just won the Best Australian documentary award!
Despite this, there are still problems getting it screened in Sydney. It did screen there yesterday in a once-only spot at the Antenna Documentary Film Festival, which is where it received the festival's Best Australian Documentary award. Of course there's an audience for it in Sydney and around Australia, but it seems likely that mass media (which invests in land-speculation and unwelcome developments) won't be anxious to let people know about it. And it is actually about stopping a huge multi-cinema complex, so I guess we should not be surprised that it isn't showing in Frankston, for instance, where a similar complex went up a few years ago, despite community protest.
Rapid population growth part of Aussie culture
Why do the Anglo-countries think that they can continue to absorb perpetual population growth?
Because rapid population growth is all Australia, Canada and USA have ever known since they were colonized. Its part of their culture, a fundamental part of their self-identity. They were founded as frontier societies. Many (most?) of their citizens simply cannot take seriously the idea that their population could ever stop growing. It is unthinkable. Look at the Australian national anthem:
"Australians all let us rejoice for we are young and free,
we've boundless soil....."
I strongly suspect before the end of this century, when the Australian population is somewhere between 50 and 90 million, the growth is going to stop, and the population decline. If we are very lucky it will be like what is happening in Japan now. Very few will be prepared. The transition from growth to decline, and then at same point stability, will be deeply traumatic.
Public Rally against inappropriate developments
TOWNSHIP OF LARA CARE GROUP INC (T.L.C)
Request your presence at a large public rally organised by Green Wedges Coalition in support with other concerned groups to reinforce the message to Minister Guy to:
PROTECT SERENDIP SANCTUARY, LARA from high density housing
PROTECT LARA AND LITTLE RIVER’S RURAL LAND /GREEN WEDGE BOUNDARIES FROM THE THRUST OF INAPPROPRIATE DEVELOPMENT
PUBLIC RALLY
WEDNESDAY 12TH OCTOBER 1PM
STATE PARLIAMENT STEPS (cnr Bourke & Spring St)
We are still waiting for the Minister’s decision to overturn Geelong Council’s shameful decision approving Amend.C73 to enable development opposite Serendip Sanctuary, jeopardising not only the Sanctuary and its wildlife, but also setting a dangerous precedent for “open slather development “in our rural land.
Make your presence and voice heard.
Bring a sign/placard.
See you there….
TLCGROUP LARA
Henry George?
Land is an asset that should be considered to be the property of a nation. Henry George had some great ideas in this regard, but they are the opposite to what you propose. In essence we would introduce a better system of land value taxation based on the services society provides to a particular parcel of land (ie proximity to road & rail, water, power, population etc). People shouldn't be taxed for the improvements they put on land. People also should not be taxed on their income (land value taxation replaces income tax).
In this way, businesses are inspired to make the best possible use of the land they have available. Land speculation is eliminated or greatly reduced (being taxed on vacant land means you aren't going to hold that land in the hope of price rises). No income tax means people are more inclined to work harder, and they have more money at the end of the day.
Obviously this doesn't solve the population growth problem, which is one of the root causes of our troubles, but reducing property prices and rents certainly wont eliminate that problem either.
As for land costs to businesses exceeding wage costs as a factor in productivity, it doesn't seem very well considered. The productivity and profitability of any manufacturing operation will be related to individual unit throughput and the costs going into those units. Rent represents one component of the costs, but it can be reduced per unit by increasing the number of units produced. Wages on the other hand are tied to production, as you need more labour to increase the number of units produced.
Simplistically, produce 100 units and the rent component is 1/100th of rent. Produce 1000 units and it's then 1/1000th of that. Contrast that to wages, and if each person only produces 100 units per week, then increasing to 1000 units requires 10 people rather than 1, so your wages bill has just gone up tenfold. Labour per unit stays the same, as long as wages stay the same, but labour as a component of total profitability stays as a fixed proportion of any increase in production, in contrast to rent which is reduced as a component the more you produce. This seems to be at odds with your premise.
Cheap third world labour is always going to destroy expensive local manufacturing. The positive is that as the third world people see their incomes rise, and begin to demand ever greater incomes, and purchase more locally, and see prices rise locally as a result of their ever greater desire for higher wages they will soon price themselves out of manufacturing as well, and maybe we'll be in a third world state by then where we're happy to step in and make things for $3 a week wages.
Health providers can't keep up with demands - Austin Hospital
Austin Hospital executives, Melbourne, are calling for more beds and chairs for the emergency department. Does it take a death of someone waiting to get some funding?
The May 2010 proposal said the emergency department was treating about 16,500 more patients a year than it was built to manage, blowing out waiting times for care.
Austin's urgent plea for funds -The Age
The hospital expected to deal with 85,000 emergency cases a year by 2015 and 98,000 by 2020 because of a growing and ageing population in Melbourne's north-east. (blame the older people?)
The May 2010 figures are now considered out of date, and the Austin ED now sees over 20,000 more patients/year than it was built for, or 40% more than a safe capacity.
The Ivanhoe district is already established, but it has been declared an "activity centre" for more population growth. This means they plan on having 17,000 NEW residents in this small catchment area of the hospital in the next decades. Add all the other "activity centres" and the demands on the hospital will be compounded and escalate.
Growth is choking our city, our public transport, our parking lots, and streets and causing more and more "shortages", and rising costs.
We are in a bottleneck gridlock of growth, and funding simply can't keep up. The two industries our State government largely rely upon- housing construction and foreign students - are both on shaky grounds, and both inherently require ongoing population growth.
Policial corruption
"Sustainable" Population Minister Tony Burke duped the public with his 3 panels, consisting of many well-qualified experts, and many community submissions, to ostensibly arrive at a population policy for Australia. We we all deceived. He wasted public time and money, and used the expert advise and status of people, as well as the public, by producing an outcome that had no relationship with the input. There was nothing, except for those who benefit from growth, that actually referred to or was based on the submissions and summaries of the panels.
http://www.environment.gov.au/minister/burke/2011/mr20110513.html
"The Strategy's focus is on population change rather than setting arbitrary targets, driving growth to regional areas by attracting skilled workers and more houses to where job opportunities are, and alleviating pressures in outer suburbs of major capital cities by supporting more local jobs." It was more about skills shortages than shortages of hospitals, schools, water, land, tertiary education funding - or even looming food shortages!
Also, we have a Planning department that assumes and enforces population that defies all the scientific and economic evidence that ongoing population growth is negative, threatening and unsustainable. Managing the "nimby" element is about over-riding public concerns, the quality of our suburbs, and democratic dialogue.
Planning should be about protecting the concerns of residents, voters and creating ideal cities - for now and future generations.
Now, we have political parties as clients of the growth-lobby - the developers, bankers, big businesses and transport firms. Public servants are paid to implement them at all costs. It doesn't matter which political party we vote for. It's all a farce. Melbourne's direction and upward population growth is decided by the growth lobby, and over-rides public welfare, reason, politics and science.
State governments are exploiting the commodity of housing to the maximum, under the smoke-screen of a "shortage of affordable housing". The housing affordability crisis will never be solved while we continue to have our high population growth rate - driven mostly by immigration.
What can we do? Avoid the Stockholm syndrome that endorses the need for "affordable housing" and having to "take our share of developments". Save our Suburbs, and take a hard-line approach.
Our population growth is due to government policy, not to large families or high fertility levels. Vote for Independents and the Stable Population Party of Australia.
Triangle film
I believe the film ran for 90 minutes but it left those I spoke to wishing that it had gone on. It was riveting throughout with skilfully chosen interviews revealing the perspectives and characters of the players in this drama. Many in the audience would have identified most strongly with the protesters against the proposed overblown exploitative, view- blocking intrusive mass of buildings and concrete walkways on a tiny piece of land near the foreshore in Melbourne's colorful, crowded and slightly seedy inner bayside suburb of St. Kilda. The film captures the character of the place - its remnant natural setting, Luna Park where one can spend a few vacuous hours doing the rides, and its exotic and artistic flavour. The film highlights the values of the people who so strongly opposed the commercial development and their disdain for the assumption that shopping comes first over all other activities. We watched the decision making process of the council and could almost see the individual minds at work as they deliberated. This film well and truly transcends its time and place though as it could happen anywhere and it is about the universal theme of democracy.
Banyule House
Firstly, I'd like to posit that the anonymous respondent "Lukekul" may well have a vested interest in the proposed residential development abutting the Banyule House estate. Unless this individual is prepared to name him or her self, then one should consider the intent or veracity of their comments from a skeptical viewpoint.
Living in Frankston, I've been following locally a similar saga to that of Banyule. A heritage-listed property in Frankston South has suffered a similar defilement to that which is confronting Banyule. I refer to "Westerfield" in Robinsons Road, a house designed by the Melbourne architect Harold Desbrowe Annear in the so-called "Arts and Crafts" style, and built on a 45 hectare allotment in 1924. Surrounding the house were terraced lawns, gardens and pergola (also designed by Annear), an orchard and vegetable garden, and a now-demolished timber windmill designed to generate electricity for the house. A large area of natural bushland east of the house was retained.
The Westerfield estate is now on 14 (see below) hectares and incorporates a house, garden, paddocks, dam and bushland. The two storey house has ground floor walls of uncoursed locally-quarried granite rubble and a half timber and stucco upper floor. The plan is unconventional, with three wings radiating out from a central stair hall. The house has no corridors, and many rooms have unusual shapes.
Despite the vociferous wishes of the local community and heritage supporters - who maintained lengthy vigils at the site - 2.7 hectares (nearly 20 per cent of the property) comprising remnant native bushland were compulsorily acquired by the state government and bulldozed to make way for the new Frankston Bypass.
I post this not to distract from the problems Banyule is facing, but to indicate that unless opposition is fierce, relentless and prolonged then there's virtually zero chance of success against the predations of a corporatist-minded government or its allies. And even then, failure is more probable than not.
— Regards and good luck, Geoff.
Mulitculturalism is an oxymoron
Why do the Anglo-countries think that they can continue to absorb perpetual population growth? The USA, Canada and Australia are not the economic power-houses they assume they are, or have been.
The costs of growth are enormous and end up strangling progress and cause bottlenecks due to the infrastructure required.
Multiculturalism is positive to a certain extent, to encourage toleration and international understandings, but there are limits. It's actually an oxymoron. "Diversity" is assumed to be a community/national "glue" but it also encourages differences and division. Racism is used to quell objections to mass immigration and lack of transparency in government decisions.
Political conspiracy on imported labour in Britain - article
"... assertion was in any case a grotesque understatement — we have opened our doors to more than five million people in the last ten years, only a minority of them Poles, and they have soaked up the poorest paid jobs in the economy and, when not doing so, have been an enormous burden on our taxes, through benefits and meeting their requirements for housing, health and education. Five million! The original Treasury estimate of how many workers might come into the country was put at 13,000, by the way. And these new arrivals have driven down the wages for the very people Ed’s party was set up to protect. None of this is their fault, the immigrants, and nobody should blame them — any more than those of us who cautioned against this policy would have blamed them at the time. We knew where the blame lay: it is Ed’s fault.
Furthermore, having wrongly identified a need for low-skilled labour from abroad, the party then sought to justify its decision by emphasising the immense social benefits vast numbers of immigrants would bring. There would be — according to a government report from 2000 published under the Freedom of Information Act — ‘a widening of consumer choice and significant cultural contributions’. And so there would, for a small number of metropolitan liberal middle-class monkeys from within whose ranks — pace Harriet — the party seems destined for ever to select its leader. As the former Labour speechwriter, Andrew Neather, put it, the policy was intended to ‘rub the right’s noses in it’ and chastise them with the massed ovine bleat of ‘raaaaaaaaacccccist’ should they possibly object. And that government paper went on to state that the long-held consensus that immigration should be limited to manageable numbers (i.e. probably not 500,000 people every year) was ‘an objective with no economic or social justification’.
I hope whoever wrote that dross is out of work right now. The same paper deliberately censored ‘emerging evidence’ of immigrants being involved in criminal gangs, fighting and mugging and begging. And as we know from the diaries of the former Labour MP for Sunderland, Chris Mullin, Labour politicians were too terrified to talk about the problems associated with immigration in case they too were met with that massed ovine bleat. "
Source: http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/all/7272448/dont-blame-immigrants-for-immigration-blame-ed-miliband.thtml
Don’t blame immigrants for immigration – blame Ed Miliband
The Spectator, October 1, p. 11
Don’t blame immigrants for immigration – blame Ed Miliband
The Spectator, October 1, p. 11
Those who helped conceal JFK murder conspiracy oppose US wars?
Thanks, Sheila,
One clue as to for how long the supposed Trotskyist/Marxist 'far left' has been as rotten and corrupt as it now can be clearly seen to be is that it also covered up evidence of the conspiracy by the US military-industrial establishment to murder President Kennedy on 22 November 1963.
The leaders of the 'far left', supposedly opposed to the same Vietnam War that JFK tried to end before he was murdered, could not have failed to notice the glaring holes in the US establishment's account of how JFK was supposedly murdered by the lone gunman Lee Harvey Oswald.
They did nothing to point this out to the American public and did nothing to help New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison bring to justice Clay Shaw, one of those who conspired to murder JFK. (Even after this story was revealed dramatically to the world in Oliver Stone's JFK in 1991, the supposed 'left' continued to ignore it. Phillip Adams, a supposed 'bleeding heart' used his voice on Late Night Live to turn listeners against Oliver Stone, shortly after the release of his film.)
How much easier it would have been to put the case against the Vietnam War to the American public had they been told that their slain President had also tried to stop that war?
But they did not, and, instead, helped to perpetuate the myth that JFK himself wanted the war to continue, whilst going through all the the motions of being seen to 'build' the anti-war movement.
They have also conceal evidence of conspiracies to murder two other great American leaders of the 1960's, JFK's brother Robert and Martin Luther King. [1]
Martin Luther King understood how population growth and high immigration undermined the wellbeing of black people and, unlike the 'far left', used his voice to speak out against it. (I thought evidence that MLK opposed high immigration existed but could not find it. Instead I found a number of articles claiming that MLK favoured high immigration. An article about the effects of immigration on black welfare is "Another MLK Day With Mass Immigration Working Against The Black Underclass" of 17 Jan 2011 by Roy Beck. One who did oppose high imigration was US Latino labour leader, Cesar Chavez.)
The fight to end the US's direct intervention in Vietnam lasted until 1972 and cost the Vietnamese at least many hundreds of thousands more lives than it need have.
The Vietnamese finally removed the US-imposed regime in 1975, but at the destruction inflicted upon Vietnam and the rest of IndoChina was so immense that any chance to build a just and prosperous future for IndoChina and the rest of South East Asia had been lost as subsequent history has shown.
If 'Trotskyists' are somehow able to depict their intervention in the mass movement against the Vietnam War as a success, the same cannot be said of their interventions since then. As examples the mass movements to stop the illegal US wars against Iraq in 1991 and 2003 demonstrably failed in spite of overwhelming evidence that the US claims ('incubator babies', WMD's in 2003) against Iraq were fraudulent.
A closer inspection of the intervention of the "far left" in the anti-war movement and other progressive causes will reveal that they undermined many of those causes.
Footnotes
1.
I thought evidence that MLK opposed high immigration existed but could not find it. Instead I found a number of articles claiming that MLK favoured high immigration. An article about the effects of immigration on black welfare is "Another MLK Day With Mass Immigration Working Against The Black Underclass" of 17 Jan 2011 by Roy Beck. One who did oppose high imigration was US Latino labour leader, Cesar Chavez.
Ponzi economic strangles our progress
No merit in the argument that "..immigration will lead to the collapse of Australian services and infrastructure".
The Ponzi economics of Australia means that the costs of infrastructure are a prohibitive bottleneck to advancement, and rising, along with the costs of living.
Germany has the world’s third most powerful economy, with its free-market system tempered by generous welfare benefits. Germany's affluent and technologically powerful economy is the fifth largest national economy in the world.
Germany has one of the world's most technologically advanced telecommunications systems as a result of intensive capital expenditures since reunification.
Germany experienced an economic boom immediately after unification.
Germany, not the United States, is the world's biggest single exporting nation.
The German chancellor announced early in April plans to boost state-controlled day-care facilities in the hope of boosting the German birthrate, one of the lowest in the world. Germany's population is characterized by zero or declining growth.
While most of their migrations had an economic background, Germany has also been a prime destination for refugees from many developing countries, in part because its constitution long had a clause giving a 'right' to political asylum, but restrictions over the years have since made it less attractive.
The new German Immigration Act, which came into force on 01 January 2005, provides for highly qualified persons to be granted permanent residence and permission to work from the outset, rather than five-year work permits as was previously the case. They must have a concrete job offer and get permission from the German Employment Agency. This is hardly the mass immigration Australia has - encouraging students, family reunions and basically having universities relying on foreign income to subsidize their existence.
Germany would prefer to stay the more powerful nation, for their own interests, and have Australia strangled by greed and population obesity as the result of our Ponzi economics.
Australians need better history education to detect S.A. poseurs
I appreciate your comments, Geoffrey. I think that few Australians have much idea of these matters, due to the appalling lack of history in schools and universities. The corruption of socialist groups here is so obvious in this light. They are actively apologists for the growth lobby. They are only able to recruit people because of our very poor education system.
SBS promotes CIS-Hartwich propaganda too
Fair Dinkum Researcher. I sympathise with you non-growth lobby researchers. No-one funds you. Thanks for drawing attention to Hartwich and Brown's lobby-serving froth.
Now I see that SBS is promoting more from the same so-called "independent" mob (CIS) and Hartwich "researcher" mentioned above:
"A German researcher says there's no merit in arguments that immigration will lead to the collapse of Australian services and infrastructure. Dr Oliver Hartwich, a research fellow at The Centre for Independent Studies in Sydney, is one of the authors of a new report on population growth and its implications for Australia. Dr Hartwich says the negative arguments currently dominating the debate on immigration are a cover for government policy failures, and the product of what he calls, an immigration fear culture."
(By Kristina Kukolja, 06 Oct 2011)
What a patronising piece, eh?
More at http://www.sbs.com.au/podcasts/Podcasts/radionews/episode/187689/Australia-suffering-immigration-fear-culture
Baby Bonus
I prefer to call myself "childfree" rather than childless. I made the decision as a very young person to remain childfree and have never regretted it - am not all that far off 70 years of age.
Someone suggested celibate communities. Why? We have excellent birth control methods.
How about the government paying me my non-baby bonus for the ten kids I chose not to have?
Marxism is the other side of Capitalism
Marxism is a reaction to Capitalism and has the same values and beliefs about progress and material wealth, just differs on distribution. Marxists, like Capitalists, believe that humans can always find what they need through new technology.
They are industrial-scale movements that find their power in cities and do not value localities and environment any more than they value local self-government.
There was a third way, led by Bakunin, called Anarchism, which tried to defend local lands, traditions and populations, but it fell under the wheels of the other two behemoths.
Communists could have stopped the rise of Nazism but infiltrators interfered. They could also have stopped Hitlers' forces in Italy and Greece, but the allies (Brits etc) failed to help them.
I personally feel that relocalisation is our only hope. That is really what anarchism is although most people have been indoctrinated with a very wierd idea of what anarchism is.
Relocalisation relies on emotional and geographical closeness to locality and the right to local self-government with delegation of power in cooperation with other communities. Such a system can preserve environment where industrial systems simply overlook it.
Sheila Newman
Geoffrey Taylor's reply has been adapted to become the article All humankind loved by population growth pushers ... except Libyans?. - Ed
Humans need protecting from their reproductive urges
"How did apparently progressive greens and defenders of the underprivileged turn into people-haters, convinced of the evils of over-breeding among the world's poor?"
- overpopulation is misanthropic - and the plight of the Horn of Africa and the threats to Tuvalu are warning signs
- as for people-hating? The human urge to dominate, spread, consume and reproduce to unrealistic levels is a sign of collective self-annihilation. It's a self-destructive gene, inherent in our DNA, that needs to be reined in, for our benefit.
- either we as humans control our numbers, or let Nature do it for us. The first is confronting, but the alternative is ugly.
- The conflict between the environmental conservation and/or people and their reproductive urges should be renewed and revisited to one of cooperation, co-dependence and harmonious cooperation.
Marxists and environmentalism don't mix
Unfortunately much of the environmental movement seems to have been taken over by Marxists and Marxist thinking. That even seems to include the mainstream Green party. Marxism and environmentalism are wholly incompatible. Principally, Marxists seem to believe more people are always good, the world is almost empty and can support many more people, by science and technology nature must be remade so it can support more people, the strength of the working class is in their growing numbers and that population control is a plot by the wealthy classes to weaken the working class. That's the impression I get from perusing Marxist literature, I'm sure someone who has studied this in detail could explain further.
Overpopulation a cause of environmental destruction refuted(?!)
From links.org.au, web-site of Green Left on 4 October 2011:
Too Many People? provides a clear, well-documented and popularly written refutation of the idea that "overpopulation" is a major cause of environmental destruction, arguing that a focus on human numbers not only misunderstands the causes of the crisis, it dangerously weakens the movement for real solutions. No other book challenges modern overpopulation theory so clearly and comprehensively, providing invaluable insights for activists and environmental scholars alike.
Ian Angus is editor of Climate and Capitalism, an online journal focusing on capitalism, climate change and the ecosocialist alternative. His previous books include Canadian Bolsheviks and The Global Fight for Climate Justice.
Simon Butler, a climate justice activist based in Sydney, Australia, is co-editor of Green Left Weekly, the country's leading source of anti-capitalist news, analysis, discussion and debate.
Reviews
"This excellent book is steadfast in its refutations of the flabby, misogynist and sometimes racist thinking that population growth catastrophists use to peddle their claims. It's just the thing to send populationists scurrying back to their bunkers."
—Raj Patel, author of Stuffed and Starved
"How did apparently progressive greens and defenders of the underprivileged turn into people-haters, convinced of the evils of over-breeding among the world's poor? How did they come to believe the 200-year-old myths of a right-wing imperialist friend of Victorian mill-owners? It's a sorry story, told here with verve and anger."
—Fred Pearce, author of Peoplequake
Japan's warship will be used against "protected" whales
The "protected" whales in the Antarctic will be facing patrol boats with a speed of 46 knots, three gun housings, and surface-to-surface missiles. They will be facing a warship. Another class, the long-range Shikishima, carries a helicopter that could also be used to spot whale pods.
Japan has accused Sea Shepherd of "violence" and "eco-terrorism" but now the conflict has gone past annoying tricks and rancid butter to the use of lethal weapons.
There is a dark prospect of Japanese military action in Australian and New Zealand citizens in waters that we have declared an Australian whale sanctuary. The Antarctic has been the most peaceful place on the planet, but this will be changed forever.
Despite the tragic tsunami and earthquakes devastating Japan, they will invest $400 million towards bogus whale "research" and an extra $25 million so the slaughter is not obstructed.
15,000 people died and over 125,000 buildings were destroyed or damaged in the March arthquake/tsunami. Others are still homeless, and landscapes dangerously wiped out.
Sea Shepherd is a not-for-profit organization that receives no government funds.
The Australian government donated $10 million to Japan's Red Cross and Pacific Disaster to support the victims. Massive donations were sent to the country, a first-world nation, to help with their recovery.
Paul Watson, captain of the Sea Shepherd, said that Japan is financing its whale hunting for the most part with donation money it received after the earthquake and Tsunami disaster earlier this year.
We should question giving aid to governments that obstruct justice and divert the funds.
Australian climate change refugees
Vivienne, I don't understand why, when much of our own population lives in low lying coastal areas which will be innundated, Australians are led to think that this country will be in a position to take climate change refugees from elswhere. Could someone explain to me this perception that Australians are somehow invulnerable to flooding? Imagine Brisbane as the sea rises, or Melbourne. Is any city safe from sea-level rise in Australia? Canberra maybe.
Social justice priorities?
While "boat people" consume the immigration debate, they contribute no more than 2% of our immigration numbers, and refugees less than 5 %. The rest of the 95% are ignored - "students", skilled, family reunion are conveniently clouded over with "racist" accusations.
Social justice needs to start here, not focused so heavily on the overseas displaced. It is distorted to prevent society being too introspective, too analytical, too un-politically-correct.
So many people are falling behind economically, and one accident like the above can be the tipping point when people are over-committed economically and time-wise.
This is a tragedy and these silent social-injustices are being ignored by the main-stream media.
India is vulnerable to sea-level rises that could devastate coastal communities and threaten an influx of millions of climate refugees from low-lying neighbour Bangladesh.
Democracy cannot survive overpopulation. Human dignity cannot survive it.
Australia won't be able to ignore the "climate change" refugees from the Pacific.
The Greens call upon the Pacific Island Forum at its 42nd meeting in Auckland next week to develop immediate plans to ameliorate the extent and effects of climate change, including:
to map out a migration programme for those who, because of the effects of climate change, can no longer remain in their home countries in the Pacific.
Social justice cannot over-ride domestic social justice issues, be used to over-burden us with ethical responses, or override or our own environmental/economic "carrying capacity" - and domestic social injustices.
Overpopulation will take a heavy toll on humanity, and social justice should not be an excuse for inaction on climate change, or resort to the "we are a wealthy nation" so that we are forced to take on a disproportionate number of a coming and potential new category of refugees - climate change refugees!
Future generations will suffer from corporate-run governments
Developers have had excessive influential buying-power within our State governments.
Both our Federal government and State governments are up-sizing Australia's population to a "big" one. We need, apparently, to keep up to the massive population sizes of Asia - for competitive wages, and defence.
This means denying all the science, and the technological evidence, that our natural resources can't keep up with human demands.
Governments need to keep up the facade that we must adjust to our population "boom" despite the fact that our population growth rate is not actually determined by our reproductive levels, or family sizes, but largely through government immigration policies.
Whether we want a "Big Australia" or not, and despite the fact that most people are being disadvantaged and overwhelmingly worse off, those with political and economic powers have the greater influence.
Big buildings, big projects, big debts and big donations is what our State governments are running on now. We are being run for the sake of the economy, rather than the contrary.
This addictive cycle must be broken, and government policies need to be returned to the people, the voters. Future generations will be handed a massively over-populated Australia, with debt and tremendous challenges - due to poor leadership and greed in these current times.
Injured NSW worker unable to pay mortgage, left impoverished
The following comment was posted to the forum discussion which followed SBS's Insight program of Tuesday 4 October Vote 4 What at 7.30PM:
I am homeless 3 years thanks to NSW Labor due to work place injury and being on 'work cover' being afforded little support and no protection from Star city casino rehabilitation scullbuggery and no thanks to Federal Coalition when in government as I had to let go of my mortgage as they wouldn't assist me in paying it as you would get 'rental assistance' renting when I on Centrelink payments, the Greens never return contact asking for assistance also, I will be just spoiling my ballots next elections.
Japan owning enough overseas property
Sheila,
Basically, I agree with you, but I do not believe that owning farmland overseas will actually help any country solve the food problem that will come as part and parcel of the coming fossil energy resources shortage. Once oil/NG shortages really begin to bite, how will any country manage to grow large amounts of food and then transport it back to the 'home' country? I think the whole idea is very short-sighted, but then one could say the same thing of the whole economic project of the past century or so, including nuclear power...
Monbiot is entirely correct.
Monbiot is entirely correct. Hundreds of studies demonstrate the worth of the modified I=PAT equation and the importance of affluence and technology variables therein. I was taught this stuff by National Academicians in the States in the 1980s and hold the relevant degrees, including a PhD in Sahelian drought and livelihoods analysis that required several years residence in African villages where I monitored growth rates along with socioeconomic and environmental variables.
I was at one of the early Campaign for Political Ecology meetings in London where overpopulation was the theme. Speakers, from the UK Green party in the early 90s, presented an overpopulation mantra that was straight out of the late 1960s, including the wildly inaccurate projections of Norman Myers that have never been proven on climate refugee numbers. A young Monbiot, by then carless, getting famous, and active in social movements and starting journalism, stood up and offered a blistering critique of their barely credible data. Monbiot, like me, has spent a lot of time in Africa and observing first hand. He also cites credible literature, unlike Optimum Population activists who look at websites. The Machakos Story (More People Less Erosion, Tiffen and Mortimore, 1994, book now available online through ODI) puts to bed the Malthusian myth about African overpopulation. They cite Boserup, who had it right when she argues people create environmental affordances, rather than the reverse. Mike Mortimore has some articles on drylandsresearch.org.uk that are based on 28 years continuous residence in West Africa and are pretty sound on the need for higher local population to meet labour demand, etc. the population-environment network at Columbia U, that I am associated with, also has frequent seminars on such topics held online.
Malthusianism has taken a long time to die, is kept alive by a few (often elderly) residents that think their nations have too many people, and fail to address the major driving forces of change - politics and economics and influence on overall impact. The debate in Australia and in Melbourne is just embarrassing - quite racist, and no credible scholar has emerged arguing we have a population crisis based on numerical analysis alone.
I also see a 9-11 conspiracy above - no thing has emerged there, either.
Shameless propaganda from Brown and Hartwich of CIS
This is a good place to post something that proposes itself as research, yet is clearly propaganda. The authors actually insist that "Population growth is not a project driven by the business lobby or politicians." How ridiculous does that statement look here?
It's a classic. Teachers should use it in primary school as an example of unclear thinking and bland misinformation with the usual biased bogies - shrinking European population [sensibly getting ready for petroleum decline] vs vibrant multiculturalism [40m under poverty line in the US and growing homelessness in Australia??].
Call it propaganda, call it paid journalism, but don't call it research because it's an insult to researchers. There is just too much of this junk around and the reason seems to be because population growth is a project driven by the business lobby and politicians, or these writers wouldn't get hired:
"Why a Growing Australia is Nothing to Fear."
Jessica Brown and Oliver Marc Hartwich | IA125 | 28 September 2011
Free download
Australia’s population is growing because our economy is booming and our society is confident about the future. Population growth is not something to strive for in and of itself, but it is not to be feared either.
A growing population presents us with challenges and opportunities. Population growth, and the skilled migration that fuels it, helps our economy grow - giving us the resources to support our ageing population, build better infrastructure, and protect our environment. A growing, pluralistic society makes us socially richer too.
Population growth is not a project driven by the business lobby or politicians. It is a fact. Australia’s population is growing, and our demographic structure means it will keep growing.
Rather than pretend population growth is not happening, we should be actively trying to harness the benefits.
Jessica Brown is a Research Fellow in the Social Foundations Program at The Centre for Independent Studies.
Dr Oliver Marc Hartwich is a Research Fellow with the Economics Program at The Centre for Independent Studies.
http://www.cis.org.au/publications/issue-analysis/article/3547-why-a-gro...
Danes tax saturated fats
Denmark has just imposed a tax of 2.15 Euros per kilo on saturated fat in food. The aim is to prevent obesity. (French News report, France 2, October 3, 2011.)
France maintains ban on gas fracking despite new techniques
More from France on gas-fracking reported on Le JT en Video, France 2, Monday 3 October 2011.
Government unconvinced by the latest techniques proposed by fracking concerns. All permits have been cancelled.
Developers are running and ruining Melbourne
Developers are running our State government! They are assuming that we have this massive population boom and we must all shove-over and accept the inevitable loss of back yards and typical Aussie living standard, for the benefit of all. This is not correct. Our fertility levels are slightly below replacement levels at 1.9. Our population growth is due to government - State and Federal - policies. It is totally in their control. Melbourne is suffering too from a disproportionate number of immigration arrivals. We don't have "skills shortage" but lack of investment in education and training. Population growth always outstrips funding for maintenance and infrastructure, and costs of Council Rates and utilities continue to rise. Our Ponzi-economic growth-based economy is unsustainable - environmentally, socially and economically. We elect government to act on our behalf, not for a few political clients who benefit.
I was at the Informa population conference and confirm
I was there at the conference. Yes both the DPCD and Housing Association spokespersons would prefer that residents who object should be silenced. AS I have lived for a period of my life with a Russian family in S t Petersburg and know what that totalitarian state does to the psyche of the people, asked DPCD if that is the society she would like or maybe she would prefer the Chinese type which in the paper that day showed people in bloody revolt against the compulsory take over of their farming land by government for development. WE still are a democracy and have the right to object to bad development.
On the other hand we do not object to good development, but most development is opportunistic and motivated by greed not planning.
Mary Drost
2nd Annual Population Australia Summit
Informa
2nd Annual Population Australia Summit
26th- 27th September, 2011
Rendezvous Hotel, Melbourne
Summary of some speeches - my comments in italics.
Dr Bob Birrell, Centre for Population and Urban research, Monash University
Building approvals for 2010-11 (9 months to March 2011) Melbourne - 35,128 Australia - 117,052 30.0 - Melbourne's share.
Melbourne is getting about 24% of net overseas migration to Australia but has 18% of our population, Why?
(only heard the last bit)
If people can't afford housing, no matter how many people are flowing in they won't buy.
Number of building approvals has expanded. Growth is heavily in 3 plus storey apartments. Expansion to 3 and 4 and 6 storeys is way ahead of demand. Are people adjusting? Consequence of investors/developers investing in growth will continue, in the CBD, Docklands etc. It's an overbuild situation, and a product of this boom.
Excessive houses and units on the market means the Bubble could implode. Investors are about 1/3 of purchases. With no capital gains, they must sell.
Young people think the prices will go up, and won't buy.
California – the pricking of the housing bubble and the fall in employment is serious. The human service industries will be very busy. Picking up the pieces of debris left by the growth-pushers and their Ponzi-economic style?
Prof Graeme Hugo, Director GISCA and Professor of Geography, University of Adelaide
Was on the panel for Minister of Population. There is a long history of population enquiries. We have no policy on population. 2010 there was a vigorous debate. There were 3 panels and 80 submissions. Published July 2011/
Graeme Hugo was on the panel: Demographic Change and Liveability.
A complex issue, and badly services. The challenge is to do something now. No “silver bullet”. There should be a policy that feeds into a wide range of other policies.
Population strategy needs to consider the implications and impacts of demographic changes across 4 domains.
- Economic Growth and Productivity
- Environmental Sustainability
- Liveability
- Social Inclusion .
Population policy must not stand alone – it must be integrated with economic, social, environmental and foreign policy and serve to facilitate and assist achievement of key national objectives such as enhancing prosperity, productivity, equity, sustainability and national
security.
Bulk of planning is for people already here, not for future populations.
The cost of not doing anything? We need behaviour changes for the whole population. There has been a substantial change in the use of water.
89% of Australians live in areas of declining rainfall.
There was little impact on the final report released by Minister Tony Burke that was influenced by the panels. No effort to discuss interventions to influence . Future population outcomes not resolved. Disappointing result. He still accepts that we must grow
Dr Katherine Betts, Adjunct Associate Professor, Sociology, Faculty of Life and Social Sciences, Swinburne University of Technology
Public opinion and the politics of immigration. Why continue with growth?
Policies aren't always popular. Some policies are made by governments on our behalf, even if it isn't in public interests, such as population growth.
Why do politicians insist on growth?
Why do they continue?
Shouldn't politicians do what the voters want? Few voters have the information. Client politics means that some groups benefit. They are a small number, but it pays off. It means more customers for businesses, cheaper labour, economic growth. The public get worse off, but it's thinly spread. (Freeman's Theory).
Most people worse off, a few people are better off. Forces for and against growth stack up. The spokespersons, lobby groups, are the commercial media and governments. Environmental groups are reluctant to speak out. Greens – nothing about numbers as they don't want to appear “racist”. SPA speaks out, but it's hard to promote stability. The only organised group. Most people are ill informed about asylum seekers. 90% of the migration debate is on the asylum seekers. 2050 numbers is not a useful strategy. Environmental and labour-marketing modeling need to be done together.
Complexity has to be accepted.
Minister Tony Burke's Population Strategy document : a massive disappointment. No articulation of submissions and panels. It just summarised existing government policy. There were ne discussion of migration, demographic issues and ageing.
Current document can't be a blueprint. It was badly served by tow sides of the population debate. Conclusion: we must accept growth?. A 30 year plan.
1980s, many voters were unhappy. We had high unemployment. Satisfaction on population growth relates to employment levels. 2009 - “too many” people.
Polarised attitudes. Large numbers don't want substantial growth. Bipartisan support for growth. Problem – new university graduates keep clear. Class, status and identity influence opinions. “new class” left wing. Progressive cosmopolitanism appeals to the Left. Debate leads swiftly and logically to Pauline Hanson. We have a North-South cultural dimension. Paul Kelly and progressive cosmopolitans= north, Social conservative, patriots in the South. There are few articulate spokespeople in the South. Conclusion: the growth-lobby is influential.
Mark O'Connor, Professional poet, Author of Overloading Australia.
At a growth rate of 1.6%, we will have 93 million people by 2010. We must get off the graph. Indonesia's growth is lower. Big businesses lobby for growth. More customers and cheaper labour. We have crippling house mortgages, divorce and congestion. Other species are going. It costs $250,000 per person for infrastructure and lasts 50 years. 1% more population adds 50% more for infrastructure. Social justice – it means the loss of jobs and training at about $34,000 for immigrants in the first 10 years over the benefits of immigrants. Rudd's “big Australia” went to free-fall. Strong inverse relationship between government stability and population growth. With 180,000 net migration, we are on course for a “big Australia”. Ken Henry questioned 35 million. It means loss of biodiversity. Doctors for the environment also speak out. Dick Smith – 36 million and then what?
I=PAT
Gormless Green equation. CSIRO – Australia's oil will by gone by 2010. common sense says we should lower immigration and stop paying baby bonuses. Norman Borlaug mentioned the population monster - no oil, no fertilisers etc. People are in denial. Growth can't go on forever. Shortage of labour considered more important than energy. Peak oil – our economy is in an oil-noose. Folly.
Anglo-Celtic countries based on growth. What do our cities produce in return? Dense cities have more car journeys. Dense cities can collapse in scarcity. They are sitting-ducks in war times. Nuclear? We have already seen the WW2 and tsunami in Japan. We can't reduce populations fast. We must never overshoot.
Planning – empty arguments. Vested interests collide with reality. They think that God or technology will “save” us.
Take -home message – of history – problems are always resolved? Empires and civilisations pass by. The Assyrian empire still doing well?
Optimism? – there are very powerful growth lobbies. Complex, and a cop-out. Growth is not inevitable. ABS – twice the deaths as births. Fertility at 1.9%. Our natural increase could go negative.
10 richest countries - balance with resources. Only riskier and shady businesses rely on growth. Urban Task force, Committee for Melbourne, UDIA - “authorities”, CEOs, (ie hidden growth pushers). Mark's speech was logical, supported by facts and data, and scary!
Kirsten Larsen, Policy Research Manager, Victorian Eco-Innovation Lab, University of Melbourne
FAO says that 70% more food will be needed by 2050. 42% more by 2032. Meat and dairy demands will grow. Up to 30-40% of the food produced sold and taken home by consumers in the UK and USA is thrown away. Land loss to urban development, and genetic and species losses to population growth.
90% of food comes from 4 food species.
Peak oil is denied. Nitrogen fertilisers are derived from natural gas. Big limiting factor. “Limits to Growth” 1972, by the Club of Rome. Dismissed.
Phosphate fertilizers are derived from phosphate rock, which is finite and expected to ‘peak’ in the near future. Peak oil is unavoidable. Availability of a nutritious diet must not be taken for granted .
CSIRO – limits to growth not addressed in 30 years.
Food security – access to food. At 36 million by 2050, we will have more refugees.
According to Kirsten, we have a moral obligation to “share our lifestyles” with those from overseas, contradictory if we don't have food security.
Prue Digby, Deputy Secretary Planning and Local Government, VIC Department of Planning and Community Development.
Volume of growth to remain growing. Planning is responsible for research and demographics. A reality analysis. Relationships between Councils and industry. Refinement of policies, regulation. NOM is important in Victoria. Historically, immigration responds to a strong demand for labour. We need an acceptable growth in the labour force.
3Ps
-Population
-Participation
-Productivity
86,000 new people in Victoria each year. Mixture of dwelling types:
Greenfield expansion
Redevelopment in each suburb
Infield – existing suburban block with townhouses
30% is infield
40% greenfield
25% redevelopment
40-50% of new houses in growth areas. “Released” land for housing. 30 years supply of land for housing as yet. Melbourne will expand 40 km north, 50 km east to Pakenham. Cost of infrastructure substantial. Grattan institute: 72% of people want a detached suburban house. Increased demand for apartment will continue.
“nimby” culture – reject all forms of change limits future generations.
Population and economy will growth. Refinement - continual improvements. We are also adaptive to new innovations. Regulation – planning reforms in more clarity. Key reforms will mean less red-tape. Councils need to reconfigure resources for strategic objectives. Anticipate and manage change is a mammoth task.
Nothing based on science, facts or data. Just about fulfilling government growth policy, under damage control and minimizing harm. Zero gain for the general public. Population growth is inevitable and not debatable. The “nimby culture” is more about democratic principles and social cohesion and community protection rather than a negative force.
The Hon. Tom Roper, President Australian Sustainable Built Environmental Council
Buildings are responsible for very high energy use. Carbon price will make a difference but not significant. Almost on difference to our current emissions. The Great Barrier Reef is dying. Number of days 30 degrees plus will increase, and effect liveability. New buildings won't cope by 2050. No longer use the past to predict the future.
We must design and build for future climates. I don't recall that he mentioned about how more people are "choosing" to live in high density apartments, with higher per capita emissions. How can greenhouse gas emissions be reduce while we have a contradictory growth-based economy? There are limits to energy efficiency.
Graham Woofe, Chief Executive, Housing Industry Association
Proposition – we are in an era of unprecedented change. Reason for affordability fall. Home ownership out of reach. Increase 2001 – 2008 very large. Baby boomers – result of a high fertility period. Children reached home-buying state. 70% of investors are mum and dad. House prices increased significantly. 1990 – 17% interest 2000 NSW was declared “full” by Bob Car. Higher prices for land and housing.
2008 – housing affordability a problem. Taxation played a major role.
Australian population growth – 2004 immigration lower. Costs of materials tracks CPI. Principle reason for growth of prices – inability to supply affordable houses. Governemnt inertial needed. Australia will require 1.6 more dwellings, 14 hotspots in NSW, 23 in Victoria. Areas at risk of housing shortages building at the current rate.
Melbourne will have a high oversupply. 6 groups of unprecedented change.
Horse-carriage manufacturers must have bemoaned the loss if their industry with the invention of motor vehicles. So with the housing industry boom times – they must end as limits to profits are faced.
Councilor Geoff Dobson, Mayor, Greater Shepparton City Council
Approximate population 62,000
Shepparton/Mooroopna growth 1.8% (2009-2010)
Council will next month consider adoption of the new ‘whole of Shepparton’ strategy to grow University education in this region . No limits to growth considered, high rise must be accepted in a rural area, and nothing about the fallouts of crime, and costs of growth.
Greece's "ageing population" blamed for exacerbating their woes
It's wrong to consider the ageing population in Europe as a "problem". Health is invested in to maintain good live spans, and then longevity is then considered an economic threat! Older people then are considered a drain on government resources for their healthcare'', according to RBS Morgans partner Simon Bond.
This is a shallow and narrow, if not callous, regard for the elderly. One dimensional assessments of demographics is bound to be ill-informed and discriminatory.
On the contrary, older people bring stability and wisdom. They help in child care, caring for the ill, and often do volunteer work. Vilifying the elderly for social unrest and economic pressure is unwarranted.
Young people are actually a "drain on government resources" as they need much more investments and infrastructure.
The modern-day economic threat of an "ageing population" is misconstrued, and unbalanced.
A demographic "bulge" of older people is about heading towards sustainability, and offers a challenge for innovation and investment in knowledge-based industries.
Rapid population growth means increased expediture, resulting in people tightening their belts to survive.
Many Greek businessmen created factories in the Balkan countries and thousands of local businesses in Greece closed. The Greek shipping lines and the merchant fleet, that was once the most important industry of Greece, today flies under the so-called ‘cheap flags’ with 90% of the crew consisting of foreigners mainly from Asian countries.
Farming, herding, fishing, seafaring, commerce, and crafts were the historical mainstays of the economy. Industrial manufacturing contributed 18 percent to the GDP in the 1990s and employed 19 percent of the labor force. The international balance of trade has long been negative.
Greece’s imports now exceed its exports by more than 4 percent of its GDP, the largest trade deficit among eurozone member countries.
No one mentions the true cause of its difficulties, the trade deficits with other euro countries, particularly Germany. It has to pay for its imports in euros. As a result of chronic trade deficits, countries have to deflate prices, including wages, to make their goods competitive in world markets and countries with surpluses like Germany are supposed to inflate their prices and wages to make their goods less competitive.
Increased imports and less domestic production in a country slowly brings down the employment and in turn the gross domestic products also comes down.
It's a cruel irony to blame the ageing population for a nation's woes when rapid population growth consumes excessive resources, social disruption and rising costs.
Illegal immigration isn't slowing. Refugees don't care if Greece is in trouble, they only intend staying long enough to find a way to get to the "promised lands" of Germany, Britain or Scandinavia. It is an alarming situation that there are 2.5 million illegal immigrants living in Greece and another one million are in transit to enter the country.
The "promised lands" should close their doors and batten-down against the tide of displacements and opportunism. Illegal immigrants have already been living from hand to mouth with the earnings available from occasional labour opportunities.
Read more: The Age: Greek society unravels as despair deepens
Re: More on normalisation of large families
Thank you Sheila. I know people in all cultures love their children dearly and I find the idea of a society where the child mortality rate is routinely well over 50% to be discomforting. I hope your theory is the correct one.
But we hear, over and over, that in agrarian societies people absolutely need large families to work the fields. Looking at the growth rates in pre-modern times (essentially flat) this cannot be so. One way or the other small families were the norm, and they did not need large families to get by.
Oz Growth Lobby pushing for nuclear
The Germans are not looking into a future of rapid population growth, so they can look forward to an easing of pressure between 2020 and 2050, as the babyboomer population declines. They have biomasse for fuel and canals for transport. Conservation will become progressively easier because there won't be the need for the same amount of goods, there will be less pressure on land and infrastructure. Ditto for Japan, however, as you have explained in other writings, including your chapters in the Final Energy Crisis, 2nd Edition, Pluto press, 2008, UK, even though Japan's population is declining, it cannot decline fast enough not to run into self-sufficiency problems in time to mitigate the effects of peak oil. Disasters are likely to intervene unless Japan owns enough overseas property to produce food. The nuclear disasters are symptomatic of a population which has grown too large to access enough power safely. However, at least Japan has ceased to grow its population.
Unlike Australia, where many signs can be found that the growth lobby is pushing population growth because it wants to invest in nuclear power and build cities in more places, using nuclear. Doesn't matter at all about the danger or the expense, or even the unliklihood that we could build all the plants it wants. The growth lobby speculates and asks questions later. Here is the candobetter 'nuclear' page with quite a few growth lobby and nuclear articles: http://candobetter.net/taxonomy/term/795
Do we really have to ask?
Hi Nimby,
Thanks for your comment. Sure, nuclear is an energy of the past; we "should" not be relying on it now. Besides the fact that it is too dangerous to justify, the problem of what to do with the nuclear waste that's piling up around the world ought to be a good enough reason for shutting down all nuclear reactors now. Meanwhile, there are approximately 440 commercial nuclear reactors in use around the world today. Stopping, decommissioning, dismantling and getting rid of all that radioactive material safely is going to be the fight of the century.
Yes, the energy crisis is ramping up. And what are "we" going to do about it? The quick answer is "life lifestyles that use less energy," but that's about as useful as saying "plonk your fingers down on these black and white keys to play the piano." Are we even entitled to hope that some solution will be found before the whole economic system comes crashing down around our ears? At least the German people have decided that they will make energy conservation one of the main pillars of their energy policy to make up for what they may have "lost" through deciding on a nuclear phase-out. That's a start. The next thing we have to figure out is how to live a decent lifestyle while ramping down fossil fuel use.
Mad Alpha Apes' and overpopulation - theory 2
Dear Quark,
Here's my take on it.
It could be that you mistaken market for society. Consider that the market has become external and independent of social interests. We now dance to its peculiar laws. The market only rewards financially profitable decisions, ignoring socially profitable ones that do not make money. Power resides in the market and only the rich can influence the market. Alpha apes, which would normally be subjected to organic rules of peers and challengers within limited territories and local populations, are artificially able to rule over as much territory as their money can buy in the global market economy. Since the market economy overarches and virtually ignores human society, they are able to operate in an abstracted social space where they receive very little correction from social pressures, and only respond to financial constraints and the magnified and abstracted mass media messages about their behaviour, which come from an imagined peer group created by hack journos for some of the biggest alpha apes - the mass media moguls. Apes in government have for some time ... um ... aped...the market apes, because they too are motivated by the pursuit of power and are not immune to the reward system of the market. They talk a sort of social talk, but they walk the market walk. They make laws that the market wants.
The market rewards population growth financially and therefore channels behaviour into supporting and coercing population growth, despite all social feedback objecting to it.
The globalisastion of Alpha ape territory can only be combatted by relocalising economies. Alpha Apes will only respond socially to people they can see and who can have an effect on them, withholding what they want, or punishing them for evil deeds, or demanding restitution and reparations for damages done. As long as our economy remains an abstract global market, and the law its servant, a kind of hypertrophied Alpha Ape will continue to cavort and rampage in the pursuit of power and money, convinced that nothing real exists to stop it, totally self-involved, unaware of environment and limits.
I think this is the nature of Alpha Apes; they don't have many mental or emotional brakes. They are gung-ho, status-prioritising, seat of the pants operators. If they were operating in the real world in real localities, they would have to depend on their communities like ordinary humans, and the sociopathic ones would quickly be challenged and killed or chased out of the community.
Just to reiterate, the apes at the top of Australian society at the moment get a lot of money from population growth and don't have to wear any of the nasty consequences or are rewarded enough by status and power (drunk with power) to ignore those they can see. They have a really cooperative mass-media which employs journalistic hacks to write copy justifying the actions of the mad alpha apes. Lots of intelligent apes who would be Alpha Apes in normal societies without global market economies overruling them, try to challenge this silly growth-lobby stuff but alpha apes only take notice of market-based alpha apes and what ordinary people (called patronising names like 'mums and dads' by the mad alphas) think or feel just does not count.
We occasionally find that the mad market alpha apes do surveys and appear concerned about our objections, but that's only because we are getting in the way a little bit and the mad apes, who are all incredibly vain, then try to 'educate' us round to their opinions, often using the term, "we" like the royal plural. They like to imagine that everyone is really like them, minus a few thousand dollars. "We" are all millionaires - or wannabes. Do you remember when John Howard was talking about a $90,000 plus 4WD once, as if it were the kind of vehicle most people could afford? Well, that is a symptom. So is the way that media people talk about how great it is that house prices are rising. They are playing "let's pretend" and excluding all the people who don't invest in houses, but just use them for shelter. They are excluding the people who leave their children in care and go into debt to buy cars so they can go to work very long and boring hours in jobs with salaries that don't even cover the principal on their debts.
The mad market alpha apes can insulate themselves in big houses and hide behind tinted windows in limosines and they can survive in the short term, better than the apes they trample, but the society cannot survive them and when the society breaks up into little pieces as oil declines, there won't be any global market. Also, of course, the mad apes take each other down every chance they can. Just look at the weapons market. They are blowing each other up just for profit. The only thing that stops a nuclear holocaust is because that would stop profits from smaller arms, which are a mainstay for the mad apes. Blow up the world, you stop the arms-trade. Overpopulate the world and the arms-trade picks up. The mad apes reign over a society of which the laws are divorced from reality, but reality is still out there and the mad apes are psychotic. Hence they chase money and ignore overpopulation.
Has anybody bothered to ask
Has anybody bothered to ask why the Germans are winding back nuclear power, and, why are Siemens getting out of reactor construction all together?
As the world’s biggest energy groups – GE, Alstom, Areva, Abengoa and Siemens (which has abandoned nuclear) – focus more on their solar technologies, and invest billions in new projects, Australia needed to accelerate its deployment and knowledge to export it.
The size of Spain's economy is similar to ours. They have reasonable solar resources, though less than ours.
Like us, they have had the advantage of a lot of cheap coal. Unlike us, their cheap coal is running out, and it is getting expensive, so their need to find alternatives is a little higher than us.
As in Australia, nuclear power is not popular - neither the government or major opposition parties are pushing for more nuclear power.
Nuclear Power isn't going to happen soon, simply because no government will make that decision. Labor, for the moment, are pushing for the carbon tax, and the Coalition would never initiate building one.
This year was the 55th annual gathering of the 151-nation International Atomic Energy Association (IAEA) at the UN body's headquarters in Vienna. With just a few exceptions, most notably Germany, governments have moved to reassure themselves that their nuclear power is safe and that its two main advantages remain: it is not fossil-fuel based, and it is cheap.
Germany decided to switch off all reactors by 2022 after Fukushima, Italian voters voted 'no' to atomic energy in a referendum while Switzerland aims to phase out nuclear power by 2034.
The Swiss upper house yesterday backed an exit from nuclear energy recommended by the government, which had earlier frozen plans for a new construction program after Japan's Fukushima atomic plant explosion earlier this year.
Global support for nuclear power is declining, and the energy crisis is ramping up.
Are the most intelligent powerful or influential?
I hypothesize that those who get to the top of the pile in our society are the ones with most of the characteristics of what it takes to survive. In a nutshell- those whose behaviours can be described as go-getting, cunning, planning within a limited time frame, confident, assertive, opportunistic possibly charming, willing to deceive within reasonable or legal bounds if in own interests. I even wonder if in a society such as Australia's which is nominally a sort of "meritocracy" based on democracy inevitably turning into a plutocracy that this may be the only possible outcome.
Those who concern themselves with long time frames- well beyond their own spans and who consider the common good rather then self interest display a greater capacity for contemplating and engineering long term survival than do the other group and they are probably the more intelligent. But if this capability- of looking at distant time frames and wider welfare and survival issues were an advantage for their own medium term survival they would be greater in number and might have more influence. I hypothesize that their intelligence would be adaptive if humans were more solitary creatures. However, we live in groups and are interdependent. Because we don't need to think a long way ahead for immediate or medium term survival then these qualities are not a distinct advantage and could even be a slight disadvantage. I think this interdependency makes it more likely that the dominant go-getting types get to the top than will the long- term thinking, precautionary. analytical types. In other words I believe that humans are led by other humans who fall in the normal range of intelligence and are probably not at all deficient, but are not the absolute cream of our collective brain power either. I think human interdependence generally ensures this pattern and probably prevents further evolution of human intellectual functioning as there is no immediate survival advantage to being extremely intelligent.
More on normalisation of large families
There is a lot of evidence that modern society greatly exaggerates birth and death rates of stable societies prior to colonisation. The family sizes and death rates went up when the societies were disorganised. Prior to this time, one of the main ways that societies held down their birth rates was through the Westermarck effect and incest prohibition, which meant that you could not marry close relatives but you also were expected to marry within your tribe (related clans) to preserve your local people identity and your local people territory. This limited 'fertility opportunity'. The breaking down of these conventions, plus modern transport, meant that local peoples lost the integrity of thier endogamous and exogamous boundaries (which have inherent organising principles) and came in contact with many new, unrelated marriage/mating candidates. These disorganising principles were accompanied by loss of traditional territory (land loss). The dispossessed and disorganised members of once self-sufficient societies, then had to rely on their labour alone to find work outside the traditional economy, for wages. The only way they could improve their incomes was usually by having more children who could also bring in incomes in economies that did not ban or enforce bans on child labour. The elites of such economies usually encouraged people to have lots of children. (And still do.) What is more they then rewrite history to normalise large families in 'traditional cultures'. Of course the traditional cultures have been broken and large families are a symptom. So are high death rates.
One of the reasons that death rates could not be very high in stable traditional societies with stable territories is that the people there had been exposed for many generations to the local diseases and had adapted. Furthermore, through endogamy within the tribe, the great majority of members were likely to share the full range of immunity and thus to remain healthy. In Virolution the author tests a related hypothesis that viral components of DNA adapt to local populations and are dangerous to newcomers.
Virginia Abernethy's theory of the Fertility Opportunity gives a good alternative explanation (to the benign demographic transition ideology) for big and small families. People have big families if they believe that economic signs are propitious. They have small families if they believe that the outlook is dim. Of course, if you are misled by propaganda to think that circumstances are propitious even when they are not, you will also go ahead and have more children. Once again, however, there has to be some belief as to what number of children is desirable or reasonable anyway. Also, if you get quick financial rewards for having children in a near-starvation economy, you will have them because you know that you will improve your immediate income.
FCOL please elaborate your points
FCOL, please feel free to say how you see the matter, in as much detail as you wish. All we know at the moment is that you don't have Greg's priorities. Let's hear what yours are and why.
Media Inquiry - ABC nat interest story
I recommend listening to the audio linked below. It is an episode of ABC Radio National's 'National Interest program discussing the merits and the opportunities within the media enquiry now underway federally.
Of especial interest is the guest's views upon opportunities for nurturing expansion of media diversification.
The quality and accountability of the media is probably one of the most significant factors bearing upon the population debate and all other issues relating to the sustainable and equitable use of our resource base. The dominant corporate media have developed an extreme capacity to promote self-harm within popularised community attitudes/beliefs. We let this political corruption continue at our peril. There is likely to be opportunity for public input to his review process. We should not miss that opportunity.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/nationalinterest/stories/2011/3330042.htm
Why Diss Marriage and Other Important Issues?
@ Greg Too sensible for an essentially emotional issue 01/10/11
My understanding of your comment in direct and plainer speak is that it is quite deliberately dismissive of the “'equal rights' marriage” issue and other” matters of prominence within popular political contention” quite overly simplistically as not worthy of discussion naming loss of ‘remnant bio-diversity’ as the only issue that matters in life. If my understanding is correct I regard your dismissive opinion as inanely unrealistic, an affront to common sense and quite offensive toward any individual possessing the intelligence to approach life realistically.
Does immediate self-interest stop growthists thinking through?
So, CSI, are you of the opinion that there is a kind of prevailing low intellect among the power elite and the media who actually believe their own propaganda?
Or maybe they have adapted to a rationale?
Maybe they have that self-serving moral kind of thinking where they believe that anything that benefits them personally must be good? So, property developers, bankers and growth-lobby friendly ministries of planning etc and those they employ will adapt their thinking to serve the immediate purpose of getting a salary? And simply shelve analysis of the negative impacts on the wider environmental supports they really rely on, and avoid any negative moral feedback from people they walk all over?
I heard the other day that a speaker from the Ministry of Planning recently demanded that the recording of a talk she gave at a forum on population be wiped from the record after the audience showed disapproval of the policies her talk appeared to support. Apparently she refused to answer a question about whether the Department had a policy of 'densification'. Her reply was that the audience member should ask the minister. Then she left the stage.
Does anyone know any more about this incident? I believe it happened at an Informa conference.
I would be interested in some further discussion of the psychology of people who work for, promote or otherwise belong to the growth lobby and the industries that benefit from it, and people who identify it as socially beneficial, whether or not they derive immediate benefit.
Universal large families recent invention
Up until relatively recently, large families were rare in these countries. Women had many children, but the mortality rate was so high less than 3 on average would survive to adulthood. Much is made of how large families are traditionally a traditional part of agrarian societies, but they are not because if you look at the population of many of these countries up until the 19th century they held fairly steady. Large numbers of children, yes, but most of them died in childhood.
Reducing mortality is a good thing, but it must be accompanied by reducing birth rates. Unfortunately the tradition for large numbers of children is very strong, because up until recently this was necessary to hold the population steady.
Most people believe resources are infinite
At present our society is based on the assumption that resources are infinite. That as time goes by the magical black box of science and technology will always unlock more and more resources, and that this will continue until the end of time. Almost all business leaders believe this absolutely, most politicians and most everyday people as well. Once you realize this, a lot of decisions made regarding population and economic growth make sense.
For example, if resources are finite it stands to reason that population growth will end eventually. Attempting to increase the population to support older people, to pay for past growth or whatever makes no sense because when the population growth ends, all those problems you've been putting off will have to be dealt with.
However if resources are infinite the population growth need never end. Its logical then to increase population forever. The more people, the more resources you can grab.
Our business leader, politicians, almost everyone in power now believe Australia has effectively infinite resources and can support an effectively infinite population. They have the tacit support of most everyday people who tend to assume everything will continue as they have been, and that growth is normal and will never end.
Population driven by immigration
Our population growth is driven by immigration. Our fertility level has increased recently, due to immigrant groups having large families. Traditionally, Australians have 2 or 3 kids and a low replacement level. However, the bulk of our population growth is from immigration - a government-tweaked number. Our population growth rate is then treated as the status quo, something natural that we must accommodate, make plans for, and adjust too. It's so sublime that people are unaware, and think that this is the "norm" rather than policy. Our city and suburbs are under pressure to soak up the growth, and take their "fair share" of developments. It's our public duty!
There's nothing "fair" about it, and politicians want a pay rise! Australia has declining living standards, soaring costs of living, and on an economy based on growth that can't be maintained or sustained.
Australian families should not feel guilty about having a family when the source of growth is immigration. Not having children will make no difference to our overall population growth.
The sooner this daft
The sooner this daft government stops paying people to breed the better...$5000 for each newly dropped parasite is absolutely despicable...and I who choose to remain childless have to pay for these breeders to keep reproducing..
Pet food companies use kangaroo meat
Pet food company Purina, producer of brands such as Purina One, Beneful, Ruffs, Supercoat and Bonnie, has come under fire for using kangaroo meat – a ‘product’ of the largest land based wildlife slaughter on the planet.
Animals Australia campaign
The industry is cruel. Spotlights are used to scare mobs of and shot at. Kangaroos are stress prone and have strong family bonds. Many of them are not hit outright and die slowly. The young and baby kangaroos are bludgeoned to death or left to die of starvation slowly. This is horrible and not a way to treat our wildlife. Up to one million joeys are considered acceptable collateral damage by tis industry. We do not want to support it.
The public need clear labeling on pet food to avoid inadvertently supporting this shameful and cruel industry.
Contact ACCC:
ACCC online form
OR
phone: 1300 302 502
Marriage Poem and More
Thankyou Sheila for a far more meaningful comment and an interesting perspective on marriage and transition of property.
That being said in my understanding property inheritance by default in our current system as a result of a marriage and a deceased partner is for the most part of greatest relevance when the person dies intestate. In the case of gay couples it is but one of many arguments put forth for the changes being sought.
What really jumped off the page at me (in your second comment Oct 1st ) though nothing new to me is the fact that marriage is many different things to many different people. I wholly agree; this is factual and will never change. But is one reason why I lean toward retaining ‘marriage’ in this country to define a sole male & female union. Gay couples are fundamentally different and will always be so to hetero, so I fail to understand why they seek so strongly an identity that has always been a hetero term. Using your example of property inheritance between gay couples but also applicable to any other ‘benefits, rights or consequences’ attached to a marriage such aspects can undoubtedly be afforded to gay couples with a “marriageesque” style relationship but a distinctly different terminology by drafting appropriate legislation.
If gays are openly so with nothing to hide and proud of themselves and their relationships I cannot understand why they would not accept a unique terminology and cherish it.
Whilst it is not necessarily my opinion (still undecided) I have seen it proposed that gays seek legitimate use of the term “marriage” in preference to an alternate terminology because it may afford a greater ‘perception of acceptance’ in broader society of their homosexuality.
I am sure there are gay people out there with views on this issue I would like to read their opinions as well.
As to the poem, I didn’t like it, found it extremely hard work, tedious & extremely long, though the length assessment is closely linked to the enjoyment factor. But that is just my taste.
How should future protesters respond to police brutality?
David C wrote:
Our best hope of preventing police brutality against peaceful protesters and to make future protest actions more effective is to show up the actions of the tactical response teams to the broader public through whatever access we have to the media and through the World Wide Web (including, of course, candobetter and occupymelbourne.org) and by using whatever legal recourse is available that is affordable.
Participants at future protests would be poorly advised, if as a consequence of having their possessions tossed into a garbage truck and then being trampled by horses, savaged by dogs, pepper-sprayed and manhandled into vans, etc., they preemptively acted violently at the next protest.
In all likelihood, that would only give the tactical response teams an excuse to attack protesters even more savagely than they were attacked yesterday.
No doubt, the mainstream newsmedia would play up for all it is worth any acts of violence by protesters and overlook the premeditated violence by police at yesterday's protests. Some readers' comments re-posted from the Herald Sun in Appendix 1, below, show how, in future, acts of violence by some protesters could be twisted into a justification for reducing our right to protest.
Appendix 1: Evidence of police brutality & counter-claims
Witness statements about police violence at the "Occupy Melbourne" protest, yesterday, (as well as what was posted by Davic C, above) include:
From the Herald Sun: "... it is hard to see why police used such force in both the eviction, and the step by step movement of the crowd up Swanston St. I witnessed unnecessary punching, shoving, and general cowardice from the police and frankly it left me feeling rather ill. The fact that 2/3's of the cops on the front line seemed to forget it was the law to be wearing identification also added to the general indecency of the police response. ... 100's of people were witnessed being hit, eye gouged, pepper sprayed and punched in the face unnecessarily ..." (by liam)
The police were totally heavy handed, choke holding innocent people engaging in a peaceful protest is sickening, what ever happened to free speech in Victoria?" (by john)
"Police were heavy-handed. I saw 8 horses charge into a group of people chanting. The horses were clearly not behaving as expected and the officers riding them were panicked by their own lack of control and screaming back and forth at each other. I saw them empty personal property into rubbish trucks, including books. I saw a kid, barely 18, flee the centre of the crowd screaming after he'd be pepper-sprayed. I saw them push an old man to the ground (he looked about 70). They shoved countless people, all of whom (that I saw) were attempting to get out of the way of a wall of angry riot police. I wasn't involved in the camp and wasn't intending to stay yesterday, but after I saw such aggressive gang-mentality from the police I think I'll go back today too. ... (Lord Mayor Robert) Doyle said yesterday it was time to give City Square back to the people. Think I can go sit in there today? Or tomorrow?" (Adam of Melbourne)
One who posted in response to the Herald Sun article mentioned above claimed that police were restrained: "The police were well disciplined and used force as required. ..."(Franky of Melb)
Also from the Herald Sun: "They were so heavy-handed. I was pushed onto the ground with brutal force. So many people were pepper-sprayed; it has been awful." (James Gibson, 22)
"As a member of the public I was appalled by this. It seemed worse with Mayor Doyle standing up on the balcony of the town hall looking like some dictator. The protesters don't have my support BUT the way this was handled they do have my sympathy. Doyle is one of the worst Lord Mayors and it will be a good thing when he goes. Very heavy handed and very un Australian. I felt sorry for some of the Police too who should be out doing other things then breaking up what was till then a peaceful protest. Shame on you Doyle and you too Mr Bailleu." (Bystander of Melbourne)
"The photo at the top of this article is proof, clear evidence that some police removed their identification badges. The officer in the hat and glasses using a grappling method that is not taught at Vic Pol, should be severely reprimanded for it as well as for removing his ID. Disgraceful!" (Believer in Civil Liberty of Melbourne)
A number who posted to the second Sun Herald article mentioned here, opposed the protesters and approved of police brutality towards protesters, but few of those made claims of protester violence:
"James, I hope it isn't over. I was enjoying seeing your type get what you deserved after being asked to leave peacefully. Bring on another day of entertainment." (Scott)
"I'm angry at these protestors, because I have never in my life seen people fight so hard for nothing at all. These left-wing extremists ask for democracy and the death of corporate greed, despite the fact we pay taxes and receive more benefits than most." (Gaetano)
The person who posted the following claimed ambivalently to against outlawing protests, but came out in favour of such laws that would ban protests if that proved to be the only way to prevent claimed protester violence:
" ... If these protests keep occurring, I can see that sometime soon the government is going to take unforeseen measures to avoid trouble. By this it could mean that the powers that be will ban all gatherings of more than 20 people in a public area through out the State. I must say that I am against that move, however if it means that is the only way that the violence is stopped, then so be it." (Roy).
Comment on previous comment: As I noted above this kind of spurious logic demonstrates how politicians and the newsmedia could turn violence by some protesters into an excuse to take away our right to protest. It is not without a reason that those in charge of many political protest movements take so much trouble to point out that they will only support peaceful protest.